Gun Advice

The debate over what type of weapon is pointless. Yes, humans can kill each other in all kinds of ways, from bare hands and teeth to nuclear weapons. But weapons like the AR-15 and others in their class are designed to look and feel and create the experience of a military style weapon designed to kill large numbers quickly. It's stupid proof easy to use. Yes someone highly trained can empty a revolver just as quickly. A nineteen year old head case, not so much. Maybe tighter regulations or banning those type weapons won't make a difference. But it would be a start. Flippin do SOMETHING!!!

I could get behind what Danmarino is proposing here and in the just to talk thread, but is it not time to put the wild wild west to bed?

"KeyFin wrote:

I used to shoot a good bit with friends/family in my 20's and I always planned on being a gun owner, but then I got married/had kids and didn't want one in the house for exactly the reason you described. My first born was impulsive and daring as she got older (it turned out she's bipolar/borderline personality disorder) so a gun was never an option in my opinion. She's 19 now though, out of the house and about to get married, so guns are finally back on the table again.

I always wanted something for the rattlesnakes anyway, but now that we had someone shining a flashlight in our window at 5 AM, it seems like the time. I do want proper training though and I'll follow through with that for my entire household. As Dan said though, I'll probably just go with a Ruger .22 for now so we can eat through a thousand rounds and get very comfortable. What Invid said makes total sense as well...a .22 is light with almost zero recoil and you're not going to take out a gas line in the kitchen if you fire from another area of the house.

I'm not expecting a home intruder, but you never know and I believe that you have to be prepared regardless. It was just never an option until now.

IMO that's the right attitude to have. Despite sensational news stories, home invasions are very rare especially compared to gun accidents. That's even among those doing all the "right things". Humans aren't perfect. We make mistakes and can't account for all the mistakes of others, so accidents happen. But gun ownership has it's benefits too. Some people just "feel safer". I don't have a gun now, but I used to enjoy the ritual of cleaning the gun. I was competitive with myself so I enjoyed improving my accuracy, speed, etc. For me, shooting was almost meditative in that it forced me to focus on what I was doing and forget about everything else. That's what I miss and will probably get back to eventually.

"Puka-head wrote:

The debate over what type of weapon is pointless. Yes, humans can kill each other in all kinds of ways, from bare hands and teeth to nuclear weapons. But weapons like the AR-15 and others in their class are designed to look and feel and create the experience of a military style weapon designed to kill large numbers quickly. It's stupid proof easy to use. Yes someone highly trained can empty a revolver just as quickly. A nineteen year old head case, not so much. Maybe tighter regulations or banning those type weapons won't make a difference. But it would be a start. Flippin do SOMETHING!!!

I could get behind what Danmarino is proposing here and in the just to talk thread, but is it not time to put the wild wild west to bed?

Personally, I'm all for arming teachers if they're comfortable with them and get fully certified- there's no reason they can't go through the one-week police training for firearms each year and just re-qualify. We don't even need extra resources for that so I think it's a no-brainer.

As far as banning weapons, I don't know if that's the answer or not. The Bahamas ban all types of guns (except by police) and the gun violence is way down there.....yet the criminals still have firearms. So the last thing I want is a society where the thugs are armed, but I'm not.

OP are you in High School?? If so? Fear not....you can still legally purchase an automatic weapon....it will be just like Call of Duty man!!! Only real life!

"KeyFin wrote:

Personally, I'm all for arming teachers if they're comfortable with them and get fully certified- there's no reason they can't go through the one-week police training for firearms each year and just re-qualify. We don't even need extra resources for that so I think it's a no-brainer.

As far as banning weapons, I don't know if that's the answer or not. The Bahamas ban all types of guns (except by police) and the gun violence is way down there.....yet the criminals still have firearms. So the last thing I want is a society where the thugs are armed, but I'm not.

My wifes a middle school teacher. Half the boys are bigger than her. As ready as I am to send her to school packing I don't know that there is a way to
I'd rather see something like a National Guard type service position. Maybe a good paying job for some of our vets. Put a trained killer on the wall at every school. Either full time or a two week tour for every NG, Army Reserve etc.

there are a little over 98,800 Public schools in America right now. That's jobs for 100,000 vets. Tax the flip outta all guns and ammo to pay for it. Or legalize it nation wide and fed tax some to pay for it. Or pay for that instead of a stupid wall, or hell, we're talking 10 million here to pay someone 75000 a year to stand watch over our children. More than we pay the teachers whom we expect to die for our kids. That's one less cruise missile or bomber, or our foreign aide to dozens of nations.

I brought the idea up with my local representative and looked at me like I was whacko. I just might get to whacko if I have to watch this ish on the news one more time.

"Puka-head wrote:

My wifes a middle school teacher. Half the boys are bigger than her. As ready as I am to send her to school packing I don't know that there is a way to
I'd rather see something like a National Guard type service position. Maybe a good paying job for some of our vets. Put a trained killer on the wall at every school. Either full time or a two week tour for every NG, Army Reserve etc.

there are a little over 98,800 Public schools in America right now. That's jobs for 100,000 vets. Tax the flip outta all guns and ammo to pay for it. Or legalize it nation wide and fed tax some to pay for it. Or pay for that instead of a stupid wall, or hell, we're talking 10 million here to pay someone 75000 a year to stand watch over our children. More than we pay the teachers whom we expect to die for our kids. That's one less cruise missile or bomber, or our foreign aide to dozens of nations.

I brought the idea up with my local representative and looked at me like I was whacko. I just might get to whacko if I have to watch this ish on the news one more time.

That's a great idea man- using gun tax money to fund school protection with vets.

"Puka-head wrote:

My wifes a middle school teacher. Half the boys are bigger than her. As ready as I am to send her to school packing I don't know that there is a way to
I'd rather see something like a National Guard type service position. Maybe a good paying job for some of our vets. Put a trained killer on the wall at every school. Either full time or a two week tour for every NG, Army Reserve etc.

there are a little over 98,800 Public schools in America right now. That's jobs for 100,000 vets. Tax the flip outta all guns and ammo to pay for it. Or legalize it nation wide and fed tax some to pay for it. Or pay for that instead of a stupid wall, or hell, we're talking 10 million here to pay someone 75000 a year to stand watch over our children. More than we pay the teachers whom we expect to die for our kids. That's one less cruise missile or bomber, or our foreign aide to dozens of nations.

I brought the idea up with my local representative and looked at me like I was whacko. I just might get to whacko if I have to watch this ish on the news one more time.

Maybe take the 300M our last president tried to sneak to a muslim country before he was officially out of the office??

That would pay for security guards and metal detectors, right?

"Puka-head wrote:

My wifes a middle school teacher. Half the boys are bigger than her. As ready as I am to send her to school packing I don't know that there is a way to
I'd rather see something like a National Guard type service position. Maybe a good paying job for some of our vets. Put a trained killer on the wall at every school. Either full time or a two week tour for every NG, Army Reserve etc.

there are a little over 98,800 Public schools in America right now. That's jobs for 100,000 vets. Tax the flip outta all guns and ammo to pay for it. Or legalize it nation wide and fed tax some to pay for it. Or pay for that instead of a stupid wall, or hell, we're talking 10 million here to pay someone 75000 a year to stand watch over our children. More than we pay the teachers whom we expect to die for our kids. That's one less cruise missile or bomber, or our foreign aide to dozens of nations.

I brought the idea up with my local representative and looked at me like I was whacko. I just might get to whacko if I have to watch this ish on the news one more time.

What happens when you get the one veteran with a screw loose who goes on a rampage at a school?

Metal detectors aren't going to stop this from happening unless each student is let in individually through a locked door after passing through. What's to stop them from just starting by shooting the guy operating the detector?

"aesop wrote:

What happens when you get the one veteran with a screw loose who goes on a rampage at a school?

Metal detectors aren't going to stop this from happening unless each student is let in individually through a locked door after passing through. What's to stop them from just starting by shooting the guy operating the detector?

It may not stop all school shootings. Consider this. Out of all active shooter events in the last ten years, 60%, roughly have occurred in a school, from Sandy Hook to Virginia Tech. 40% in the workplace.

Is it worth investing in protecting the most vulnerable in our society? Can you really not see value in trying? We are averaging 100 mass shootings a year over the last three years. That's shootings with 4 or more victims. 60 per year in school. 10 million, 25 million 100 million worth stopping half of those? Because it would. Probably more like 90%. Id pay more in taxes if it stopped one kid from being murdered while he tries to figure out Algebra.

Less money than what Jarvis Landry is going to make per year to put an armed guard trained and sworn to protect our children in every school. Fuck it. Worried about the one vet snapping? Put three then. 50 million a year school security agency. We spend that defending Israel every day.

Got a better idea?

Hiring armed vets to patrol our schools is an option I wish more would take seriously. Hell, I'd volunteer my time.

And it should go without saying that these vets should be vetted. And worrying about the "lone crazy vet" is akin to worrying about getting bitten by a shark. A great number of police officers are veterans and very few go crazy and use their service weapon to go on mass shootings.

"Puka-head wrote:

It may not stop all school shootings. Consider this. Out of all active shooter events in the last ten years, 60%, roughly have occurred in a school, from Sandy Hook to Virginia Tech. 40% in the workplace.

Is it worth investing in protecting the most vulnerable in our society? Can you really not see value in trying? We are averaging 100 mass shootings a year over the last three years. That's shootings with 4 or more victims. 60 per year in school. 10 million, 25 million 100 million worth stopping half of those? Because it would. Probably more like 90%. Id pay more in taxes if it stopped one kid from being murdered while he tries to figure out Algebra.

Less money than what Jarvis Landry is going to make per year to put an armed guard trained and sworn to protect our children in every school. **** it. Worried about the one vet snapping? Put three then. 50 million a year school security agency. We spend that defending Israel every day.

Got a better idea?

Source on those percentages?

What would Vegas fall under?

"aesop wrote:

Source on those percentages?

What would Vegas fall under?

You know that you can take "vegas" and "what if X has a screw loose" for literally ANY solution anyone proposes.

IDC what measures you go to you aren't going to stop dumb people, but what you can do...is take steps to help lessen the success rate of these social media/attention driven idiot little assholes.

"aesop wrote:

Source on those percentages?

What would Vegas fall under?

The 60% number came from the workplace violence active shooter training my company gave us last year. The 300 mass shootings in the last three yeas was from the news. I think that may be three hundred casualties, not incidents however.
Vegas would be in the 3-5% that are not workplace or school related. That would also include domestics but that is really a separate category.

"Fin-O wrote:

You know that you can take "vegas" and "what if X has a screw loose" for literally ANY solution anyone proposes.

IDC what measures you go to you aren't going to stop dumb people, but what you can do...is take steps to help lessen the success rate of these social media/attention driven idiot little *******s.

I understand. But the incentive is the notoriety and becoming infamous for these idiots. Maybe you make it harder to do it inside the school with metal detectors and increased security and these guys, instead, start doing it in malls and movie theaters. These senseless shootings won't stop until the media stops publishing these guys pictures and names with 24 hour coverage for a week.

I caution against turning into a police state.

"aesop wrote:

I understand. But the incentive is the notoriety and becoming infamous for these idiots. Maybe you make it harder to do it inside the school with metal detectors and increased security and these guys, instead, start doing it in malls and movie theaters. These senseless shootings won't stop until the media stops publishing these guys pictures and names with 24 hour coverage for a week.

I caution against turning into a police state.

I'm a huge believer in the 2nd amendment. I own AR's, other types of rifles and handguns. However, I'm sick and tired of people getting their hands on weapons when they have no business having them. I don't think an AR is any more dangerous than a handgun. Hell, the deadliest school shooting in American history was accomplished with 2 handguns. However, there needs to be better vetting done for people who want to own guns. Any gun.

Right now I can walk into any gun store and purchase any type of rifle they carry without a background check. The only thing I'd need is proof of age. With a simple background check (that is not very thorough), I can purchase a handgun. Some states make it a little tougher to own handguns.

What needs to happen is every state needs the same guidelines. This would stop people from going across state lines and purchasing guns when it's too difficult in their own state. Next, every person who wishes to own a gun needs to go through mandatory training. This training should be consistent across state lines and should be conducted by state trained professional instructors who have also gone through some mental health training. Current or former police officers would be great in this role. If they suspect that someone in their class has a mental health issue they refuse them the permit and refer them to a mental health professional for further testing. If they are deemed fit, they may be issued the permit. And this training has to be both written and practical. Lastly, a person who passes the class and gets the permit should have to have refresher training and subsequent background checks from time to time keep their permit active. All drivers must do this. All medical professional must do this. All people who do something that can potentially take a life, except gun owners, must do this. As a concealed weapons permit holder I must recertify every 5 years and have a repeat background check done, but if I just want a gun for my home, I don't.

"aesop wrote:

I understand. But the incentive is the notoriety and becoming infamous for these idiots. Maybe you make it harder to do it inside the school with metal detectors and increased security and these guys, instead, start doing it in malls and movie theaters. These senseless shootings won't stop until the media stops publishing these guys pictures and names with 24 hour coverage for a week.

I caution against turning into a police state.

Couldn’t agree more.

The media has been a huge part of making this country decline, both intellectually and safely.

"aesop wrote:

I understand. But the incentive is the notoriety and becoming infamous for these idiots. Maybe you make it harder to do it inside the school with metal detectors and increased security and these guys, instead, start doing it in malls and movie theaters. These senseless shootings won't stop until the media stops publishing these guys pictures and names with 24 hour coverage for a week.

I caution against turning into a police state.

The media isn't the problem.

It's advertising.

Advertising is fed by ratings. Ratings are fed by sensationalist coverage.

We need a citizen run news source, paid for by every American citizen. It will be bipartisan and facts based. It will have actual journalists. It will have a newspaper, web site and cable station. No editorials. No endorsing candidates. No advertising.

"Fin D wrote:

The media isn't the problem.

It's advertising.

Advertising is fed by ratings. Ratings are fed by sensationalist coverage.

We need a citizen run news source, paid for by every American citizen. It will be bipartisan and facts based. It will have actual journalists. It will have a newspaper, web site and cable station. No editorials. No endorsing candidates. No advertising.

Well said, Tony.

"Puka-head wrote:

My wifes a middle school teacher. Half the boys are bigger than her. As ready as I am to send her to school packing I don't know that there is a way to
I'd rather see something like a National Guard type service position. Maybe a good paying job for some of our vets. Put a trained killer on the wall at every school. Either full time or a two week tour for every NG, Army Reserve etc.

there are a little over 98,800 Public schools in America right now. That's jobs for 100,000 vets. Tax the flip outta all guns and ammo to pay for it. Or legalize it nation wide and fed tax some to pay for it. Or pay for that instead of a stupid wall, or hell, we're talking 10 million here to pay someone 75000 a year to stand watch over our children. More than we pay the teachers whom we expect to die for our kids. That's one less cruise missile or bomber, or our foreign aide to dozens of nations.

I brought the idea up with my local representative and looked at me like I was whacko. I just might get to whacko if I have to watch this ish on the news one more time.

Chris Rock was on the right track.

"aesop wrote:

Source on those percentages?

What would Vegas fall under?

"Puka-head wrote:

The 60% number came from the workplace violence active shooter training my company gave us last year. The 300 mass shootings in the last three yeas was from the news. I think that may be three hundred casualties, not incidents however.
Vegas would be in the 3-5% that are not workplace or school related. That would also include domestics but that is really a separate category.

So I guess my numbers got added up in my brain due to the fact my families workplace is in education for the most part. Workplace and education together add up to 70% ish of location for active shooter incidents according to the FBI. Education is a mere 25%. But that 25% doesn't have the ability to defend themselves.
[ATTACH:full]

And sorry if I'm Hijacking your thread Key.

"Fin D wrote:

The media isn't the problem.

It's advertising.

Advertising is fed by ratings. Ratings are fed by sensationalist coverage.

We need a citizen run news source, paid for by every American citizen. It will be bipartisan and facts based. It will have actual journalists. It will have a newspaper, web site and cable station. No editorials. No endorsing candidates. No advertising.

There was a time when the news was better and employed greater integrity though. Now it doesn't. They're not fully void of culpability. I agree fully with your solution though.

"ToddPhin wrote:

There was a time when the news was better and employed greater integrity though. Now it doesn't. They're not fully void of culpability. I agree fully with your solution though.

It is because of the advertising money. TV and the internet created more competition. To attract viewers, outlets would start to add pizzaz. Some of these news outlets, had to be 24/7 so they also needed to fill time.

The problem is, they are for profit businesses, which means their decisions are ultimately decided by dollars. OTOH, we cannot have a government run news entity either and the business run is better than that. But that's why I'm advocating for a 3rd option.

"Fin D wrote:

It is because of the advertising money. TV and the internet created more competition. To attract viewers, outlets would start to add pizzaz. Some of these news outlets, had to be 24/7 so they also needed to fill time.

The problem is, they are for profit businesses, which means their decisions are ultimately decided by dollars. OTOH, we cannot have a government run news entity either and the business run is better than that. But that's why I'm advocating for a 3rd option.

And the same could be said about politics. Not to make this political, but without lobbyists the system would be way less corrupt. Politicians are in it for the money. And the ones who aren't soon tire of the corruptness of it all and move on to something else.

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms.

However, here is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths:

(These are numbers from 2016)

• 65% of those deaths are by suicide which would never be prevented by gun laws
• 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty
• 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – gun violence
• 3% are accidental discharge deaths

So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but 5,100 (17% of 30,000). Still too many, of course. But look where those deaths are happening?
• 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
• 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
• 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
• 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)

So basically, 25% of all gun crime death happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of laws that are the root cause. It is a cultural problem, a mental problem, and an access problem.

This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation. Although, California alone had 1,169. Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California.

Now, if you have read any of my other posts you'd see that I am for stricter gun laws. Laws requiring people to go through more thorough background checks, and mandatory training. However, that won't really affect the everyday shootings we see in the 4 cities I mentioned or across the nation for that matter. It may prevent a few, which is worth it in my opinion, but the overwhelming number of gun crime related deaths are done with people who illegally posses a gun. IOW, there are already laws that address those deaths. I think, however, stricter penalties need to be enacted for gun crimes. As it stands, you can rob someone or a business at gun point and serve only 5 years in most states. That's too low. The laws I'm suggesting would HOPEFULLY drastically lower people shooting up schools. Why? Because it seems the types who do this are typically getting their weapons legally or from someone who obtained it legally.