Hyde: This is competition for Henne?

No holding back, we viewed Miami's O as one and done. Unload 1st Qtr and unable to adjust. Offensive IQ was below average. Will that change..... With the new OC? It will...if TS let's his OC coach and not force him to play not to lose... Prevent O.

"padre31 wrote:

Well TBh with you I believe Henne is miscast, what he should be looked at is as a good Qb in a running offense, who can convert 3rd downs and deals with blitzes well, I think his arm strength causes people to think he is something that he is not.

Basically, he does not have the cockiness to be the qb who can throw the ball deep.

I can agree with that actually....Henne does have the demeanor of a game manager.......not the attitude of a gunslinger....problem is...he doesnt break the game down mentally to be an effective game manager.....his arm buys him latitude, yet he wont use it.

This is the mentality Henne needs to have...seriously.......this is the best breakdown of a gunslinger attitude I have seen....

http://youtu.be/_K3eotZERd4

"Lets go man....gimme some time to throw a 5 yrd out.....a ten yard out...lets go!!!!"

"Come on now...lets quit feeling sorry for ourselves...lets do something."

And this one....

"You talk about championship courage......you talk about a will to win....a flame burns inside THAT MAN Dan Marino".....Mad Dog really couldnt have said it any better!

Focus now(?), how'd we go from Henne to Marino?

"GRT8 wrote:

No holding back, we viewed Miami's O as one and done. Unload 1st Qtr and unable to adjust. Offensive IQ was below average. Will that change..... With the new OC? It will...if TS let's his OC coach and not force him to play not to lose... Prevent O.

Will that change..... With the new OC?

"GRT8 wrote:

No holding back, we viewed Miami's O as one and done. Unload 1st Qtr and unable to adjust. Offensive IQ was below average. Will that change..... With the new OC? It will...if TS let's his OC coach and not force him to play not to lose... Prevent O.

Ah, but if it works and they just grind opponents down it will then be 'pounding, powerful, running game"

IDK tbh, I've watched every snap Henne has taken as a pro, and it strikes me with a running game he is just a different Qb, suspect once the league figured him out, Henning had no plan B, also think the routes the Wr's ran, and the lack of effective outlet options, pretty much turned the offense into a dink dunk take no chances affair.

"muscle979 wrote:

You don't have to be a QB guru to realize that Matt Moore is poor competition for Chad Henne. Bottom line is after Ireland, Fist pumper, and company were spared early this year they insisted they were going to bring in serious competition for the QB position. They lied.

no they didnt lie, they apparently just felt that there is no one out there worth the cost/compensation and since we needed a backup who would also sign for just backup money they decided to sign matt moore

"GRT8 wrote:

Will that change..... With the new OC?

Well, it depends, if one steps back and just looks at the personnel groupings, we have two distinct units, one that is more or less traditional, Bess Hartline Fasano etc, and one that is highly flexible, Gates, Clay, Bush, how they manage that situation will go a long way in answering your question.

I have pointed out, but not banged the drum, that instead of rehashing the Dolphins 2010 season, people need to look at the Browns 2010 season on offense to get a feel for what may happen this yr.

Daboll got production out of Hillis, Watson, Moore, and that was about it, the Browns were so shallow on talent that roles for Bess and Marshall just do not translate to our 2011 season.

"muscle979 wrote:

Even when they've been 7-9 they've been mathematically alive for the playoffs well into December. Is that your definition of 'competing for a playoff spot'? The same logic was used to keep Dave Wannstedt around after the 2003 season. I mean he didn't make the playoffs but he won ten games. He was competing. We know how that turned out.

And what are you saying about 'giving it all up?' Now you sound like you're just trying to be dramatic. I didn't realize Tony Sparano not being a good coach would be such a traumatic experience for you.

huh?, dramatic?, ive lost ya 79, you know what being overdramatic is, not putting a mammoth rebuild into proper context or perspective, and firing a staff after three years, firing a staff that posted a winning record and a division title in their three years while they were rebuilding one of the worst football teams in history..

"Bpk wrote:

Yup.

Two years ago we were a playoff team looming to take the step to Superbowl team.

Today we are looking to take a step up to being a playoff team.

What's wrong with this picture?

no, not you BK, so you expected no drop off after accomplishing a historic feat, while the rebuild had to take place?

I really just think......

Miami knows what situation they are in regarding the QB position. In their minds....nothing this season was really a huge upgrade over Henne. I think they have their eyes on the 2012 draft, where they will be in prime position to take maybe not Luck, but either Barkley or Landry Jones....

I tell you...the guy I would love to see them get.....is Brandon Weeden....

"GRT8 wrote:

Focus now(?), how'd we go from Henne to Marino?

Marino was an illustration of what Padre was saying....the "cockiness" to throw deep. If you watch that video...the whole video talks about Marino's swagger....how he handled the huddle....other players. Thats what Henne is missing I think...

"djphinfan wrote:

no, not you BK, so you expected no drop off after accomplishing a historic feat, while the rebuild had to take place?

Hey Im with you DJ....

"djphinfan wrote:

huh?, dramatic?, ive lost ya 79, you know what being overdramatic is, not putting a mammoth rebuild into proper context or perspective, and firing a staff after three years, firing a staff that posted a winning record and a division title in their three years while they were rebuilding one of the worst football teams in history..

'One of the worst teams in history'. Recordwise yes, but not hardly. Just one among many bad teams in the history of the league. This is an exaggeration with the purpose of relieving Tony Sparano of accountability for a bad 2010 season that ended with his team quitting on him and embarrassing everybody affiliated with the Miami Dolphins.

"djphinfan wrote:

no, not you BK, so you expected no drop off after accomplishing a historic feat, while the rebuild had to take place?

Everybody expected dropoff. We got that in 2009. Then we expected some progress. Instead we got more decline. And finally complete collapse. If the Fins would have finished 9-7 last season and not humiliated themselves nobody would even be having this discussion.

"vt_dolfan wrote:

If you watch that video...the whole video talks about Marino's swagger....how he handled the huddle....other players. Thats what Henne is missing I think...

I'm not really sure about that. There's been quite a couple of successful quarterbacks without that "swagger" - guys who'd never been mistaken for natural leaders if they hadn't won a lot of football games and got that leader label attached to them by virtue of being a good quarterback. Players don't buy into personality; players buy into success. Marino could have gone into that huddle doing a little nursery rhmye or quote from Shakespeare; his team mates knew that he would get the job done and that's all that matters. Henne doesn't lack a swagger or an attitude; he lacks some fundamental QB skills. If he can improve those, he could be Robo-Henne all day long and his team mates wouldn't mind one bit.

"Vendigo wrote:

I'm not really sure about that. There's been quite a couple of successful quarterbacks without that "swagger" - guys who'd never been mistaken for natural leaders if they hadn't won a lot of football games and got that leader label attached to them by virtue of being a good quarterback. Players don't buy into personality; players buy into success. Marino could have gone into that huddle doing a little nursery rhmye or quote from Shakespeare; his team mates knew that he would get the job done and that's all that matters. Henne doesn't lack a swagger or an attitude; he lacks some fundamental QB skills. If he can improve those, he could be Robo-Henne all day long and his team mates wouldn't mind one bit.

Look at Jay Cutler or Eli Manning. Hardly the pictures of bravado and machismo, but they throw TDs. That's what players respect.

"muscle979 wrote:

So you're saying a four year plan here? That means you expect playoffs this season at a minimum right? If that doesn't happen after this season will you finally acknowledge that the FO and Tony Sparano are not doing a good job?

A four year plan means championship contention in the fourth year. If DJ thinks we MAY make the playoffs then he's not buying a four year plan, he's buying a five year plan.

And I don't think he has any clue how long it takes to rebuild a team, personally. I don't mean any offense there, I don't know that any of us really knows how long it takes to rebuild a team and I don't personally think there is any set amount of time. But the most commonly accepted amount of time, the one Bill Parcells HIMSELF laid out for the Dolphins, was a three year plan.

"GRT8 wrote:

Will that change..... With the new OC?

That's a good question. Objectively speaking, I don't think it will. I mean you have to look at this from the mile high view so that you don't lose the forest for the trees. Tony Sparano hired almost the entire offensive staff before Brian Daboll arrived. They fired some people last year, the QBs Coach, RBs Coach, TEs Coach and of course Dan Henning left as he had agreed he would well before the 2010 season started (Tony had begged him to stay on one more year). But who did they hire in all those peoples' places? They hired internally, Tony Sparano guys hired by him and schooled in this "one and done", "low football IQ" offense as you put it. The only external hire was RBs Coach Jeff Nixon from the Eagles.

So Brian Daboll has to deal with almost an entire staff that are incumbents, were here in Miami before he arrived, and then he also has to deal with Sparano himself who is an offensive guy and once called plays in Dallas. He was never a true offensive coordinator, which I think too many people ignore. He was a run game coordinator and game day play caller, but he's never coordinated a passing attack. Tony has always stated that Dan Henning's offense here was a marriage of the offense Henning liked, and Tony's influences he brought from Dallas. I don't expect that to change. Brian Daboll doesn't exactly walk in with a lot of clout to start throwing his weight around. No other team in the league was about to hire him as a full OC, I would guess.

Then you look at some of the offensive tendencies that Miami had under Henning versus what Henning himself has taught in offensive seminars, which we know courteous of alen1 who has notes on Henning's offense. There were GLARING differences. Henning preaches screens and quick game. Miami hardly used it. Henning has a stated directive not to use play-action in obvious passing situations. Miami did that several times. Henning laid out a formula for distribution of throws deep, intermediate and short. That formula called for about 17% throws deep (4 of 24 pass attempts, 20+ yards downfield). In Miami from 2008 to 2010 that was consistently halved, whereas in Carolina both Rodney Peete and Jake Delhomme threw deep almost exactly as much as in Henning's notes.

To ME the glaring differences between what Dan Henning has always stated he wants to do, and what happened in Miami...point to Sparano and his conservatism. That's not certain, I've not been in those meetings, I have no clue. But that's what it points toward. Given that, given the fact that the entire staff are hand picked Sparano guys that were here prior to 2011, I don't really imagine that Brian Daboll is going to be able to seriously transfigure the mentality of the offense...and that's what is important. Changing the X's and O's is one thing, but changing the mentality requires a lot more work. It would have been easier with a QB change to a guy that came from a more aggressive system. If the Dolphins acquire Orton after all, bully for them. But if not, they've put themselves even further behind the 8-ball.

"ckparrothead wrote:

A four year plan means championship contention in the fourth year. If DJ thinks we MAY make the playoffs then he's not buying a four year plan, he's buying a five year plan.

And I don't think he has any clue how long it takes to rebuild a team, personally. There is no set amount of time. But the most commonly accepted amount of time, the one Bill Parcells HIMSELF laid out for the Dolphins, was a three year plan.

I think we're in the 8th year of our 4 year rebuilding plan and were still talking about a good "nucleus". hmmm

CK

As One of the few here who I actually feel has some realistic takes on things, I'm I just miss reading our organization?

I mean ya defense is pretty good but WTF are we unwilling to get quality Offensive players who could be there down the road when we find or develop a real QB. QB I don't even want to go there...........

I'm finding it so hard to fathom that teams are in the hunt for quality veterans for several years now and we are saving money and trying to figure out how to sign roll players..........

sorry

10 years of this crap and my fuse is getting shorter and shorter. Just like to see a GM that makes moves that make many of us see why these guys get big bucks.........

guess I'm just jealous of those in here who are able to see the glass so full when I see it about to fall off the table.......

Well FA isn't over and hell we're tied for first place............just hope that the offense catches up to the defense before we need a new defense.......sometimes I think we're more of a construction company than a football team........

"muscle979 wrote:

Everybody expected dropoff. We got that in 2009. Then we expected some progress. Instead we got more decline. And finally complete collapse. If the Fins would have finished 9-7 last season and not humiliated themselves nobody would even be having this discussion.

So 7-9 is a complete collapse? You say it would be so much better to be 9-7. It is a two game difference.
Sorry to say but you look like a whiner in this thread. Along with many others.
It's close to being just as frustrating to see the fans act this way as it is to lose football games.

"ckparrothead wrote:

A four year plan means championship contention in the fourth year. If DJ thinks we MAY make the playoffs then he's not buying a four year plan, he's buying a five year plan.

And I don't think he has any clue how long it takes to rebuild a team, personally. I don't mean any offense there, I don't know that any of us really knows how long it takes to rebuild a team and I don't personally think there is any set amount of time. But the most commonly accepted amount of time, the one Bill Parcells HIMSELF laid out for the Dolphins, was a three year plan.

The point I've always tried to make is that I would have no problem if we missed the playoffs last year but were trending UPWARDS. But the end of last season was a disaster. And with that we are in this year's camp with huge question marks at QB, RB, and interior offensive line. And what it seems isn't talked about much is the defense. People say 'well our defense is probably going to be elite.' Is that a given? Our defense did not take the ball away last season. No they will not be elite unless they figure out how to do that a whole lot more. Then of course there's the assumption that Tony Sparano was some kind of helpless victim to Dan Henning's horrid offensive playcalling and game planning. I just don't buy that and it's something you've addressed pretty thoroughly already. The best part is that using wins and losses as a bottom line for a regime after FOUR years would be a 'shallow' way to judge the coaching staff.

"Killerphins wrote:

So 7-9 is a complete collapse? You say it would be so much better to be 9-7. It is a two game difference.
Sorry to say but you look like a whiner in this thread. Along with many others.
It's close to being just as frustrating to see the fans act this way as it is to lose football games.

Well, it looks as if the Orton trade is dead so Henne is "the guy" and I can live with that as I've said that our season hinges more on the running game then on Henne carrying the load again.

And do agree, only Jest fans are allowed to be confident, which is just silly, but I've seen dire predictions that the D will regress, and of course ST will still suck, and Thomas is just to unknown to be positive about him..kinda sad really.

"Abbi Normal wrote:

I think we're in the 8th year of our 4 year rebuilding plan and were still talking about a good "nucleus". hmmm

CK

As One of the few here who I actually feel has some realistic takes on things, I'm I just miss reading our organization?

I mean ya defense is pretty good but WTF are we unwilling to get quality Offensive players who could be there down the road when we find or develop a real QB. QB I don't even want to go there...........

I'm finding it so hard to fathom that teams are in the hunt for quality veterans for several years now and we are saving money and trying to figure out how to sign roll players..........

sorry

10 years of this crap and my fuse is getting shorter and shorter. Just like to see a GM that makes moves that make many of us see why these guys get big bucks.........

guess I'm just jealous of those in here who are able to see the glass so full when I see it about to fall off the table.......

Well FA isn't over and hell we're tied for first place............just hope that the offense catches up to the defense before we need a new defense.......sometimes I think we're more of a construction company than a football team........

I think the reality is this and it's fairly simple:

They view the QB position to be a 'core position'...but that's it. They also view NT, RB, LT, CB and WR to be core positions. In other words, there's nothing 'special' about the QB position, it's just another position on the football field.

IMO, this is admirable in its being the football equivalent of egalitarianism, but it's also very unwise.

If you look at all their moves from 2008 to present day through that lens of an acceptance that the QB position is just one among many key positions, their moves make a lot more sense for them.

"Killerphins wrote:

So 7-9 is a complete collapse? You say it would be so much better to be 9-7. It is a two game difference.
Sorry to say but you look like a whiner in this thread. Along with many others.
It's close to being just as frustrating to see the fans act this way as it is to lose football games.

Did he say "complete collapse"? Those are your words, not his. He said we expected PROGRESS in year three, and instead got "more decline".

"Killerphins wrote:

So 7-9 is a complete collapse? You say it would be so much better to be 9-7. It is a two game difference.
Sorry to say but you look like a whiner in this thread. Along with many others.
It's close to being just as frustrating to see the fans act this way as it is to lose football games.

What world do you live in where December 2010 wasn't a collapse? Can you take me there too?