I think when it comes down to it at linebacker, I'd prefer Ryan Shazier to CJ Mosley.

 

Trade down with who?

 

So we start the season with...citizensnips at right tackle?

 

Pffft. Like you could even crack the starting lineup.

Definitely make the team though.

 

The bolded part is not really true. He played on the edge at times, but was more of a true Will LB. Excellent blitzer. He's also bulked up to 237lbs as of his pro day. I looked at him more last night, and if it's true that Joe Philbin and Kevin Coyle were really onto Lavonte David, then I think they'd be inclined to steer more toward Shazier than Mosley.

I think if they want to be more of a fast-flowing type of defense, then Shazier would be my preference.

 

Personally I didn't see that athleticism on the field with Shazier, granted Luke Fickle is a horrendous DC and was likely misusing him. Props for the well timed steriod cycle pre combine, although his hammy sure paid the price.

I see him as a better 3-4 LB than a 4-3 guy, also would be leery of him being hurt often.

I wish him well for obvious reasons but would prefer Miami look elsewhere at 19.

 

He just seems like a guy that Miami would look at if it's true that Philbin and Coyle really wanted Lavonte David. Not saying Shazier is as good or will be as productive as David was, but IMO Shazier's the closest LB prospect to David in this year's Draft. Definitely see flashes of the athleticism, but you're right, it's not something that's always consistent.

 

I wish we had a second first round pick... this first round is that good... I want to draft our franchise defensive leader.. we don't have one, we got some nice players but we don't have Zach Thomas out there to lead this group to elite.

 

Mosley will probably be gone by 19. You're not likely gonna trade down and still pick Mosley.

 

Why would a team trade up for a WR other than the top 2 in a draft that is loaded at WR? If a team wants to trade up for one of the top 2, they'd need to get higher than 19.

 

I'm sure you've seen a lot more of Shazier than I have and have probably been watching more closely over a much longer period than I have, but I see a lot of athleticism in the tape I've seen. Granted, a lot of that is highlight stuff on YouTube. On a play-by-play basis you don't see much athleticism from him? To put up those kind of tackle numbers in a defense that doesn't necessarily funnel everything to him, I'd think he'd have to have shown quite a bit of range. Or do you think there is a lot of fluff in those tackle numbers (which is often the case)?

 

For starters I don't want anyone to think I don't like Shazier, he surely has a lot of exceptional tools in his bag. As far as his numbers go he was afforded a lot of freedom from the space eaters up front, I haven't watched a single highlight tape but I would guess you don't see him shedding blocks to make plays very often. Being in the run heavy big ten may or may not have padded his stats, I don't have any splits.

The guy can develop into a nice player with a solid scheme and the right coaching. For example I would HATE to see him in New England or NY.

I could be off but I just never watched him and thought he was that impact LB Ohio State has been accustomed to sending to the NFL. Just the good ole eye test.

 

I see the athleticisim on Shazier's tape. He almost drips with it. The problem is that athleticism is constantly being used to bail himself out of bad situations that he gets himself into with what look like, in my opinion, bad instincts and slow key reads.

What you have set up is kind of the classic philosophical debate about ceilings and floors. Some coaches will see Shazier's athleticism on the tape and think look how productive this guy can be because of that athletic ability, and he's not even doing things right. Wait til I get done coaching him and you'll see what a player he can be. But I think it's in the nature of personnel guys to not trust that. So they'll look at C.J. Mosley and say look what a player he already is.

I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer. There probably will be a right answer and a wrong answer, but I don't know if it's always going to be right or always going to be wrong. Boils down to your feeling about the player. Right now I'm leaning toward Mosley over Shazier.

 

This may sound crazy, but I actually think the ability to take on and shed blockers is a little overrated. The truth is that you don't see that many plays where a guy does that and still makes the tackle, either at the NFL level or the college level. That's not to say it is wholly unimportant, just that IMO it is not as important as some make it out to be. From my recollection, ability to take on and shed blockers has been a supposed weakness of most of the great LBs in the last 25-30 years. It certainly was of guys like Zach Thomas and Ray Lewis when they were coming out. It seems like the guys who often have the most success are the ones who have the instincts to diagnose the play and who can run to ball and know how to avoid or slip the blocker moreso than take him on and shed.

 

He played at around 210-215, he knew he would need to bulk up too take on NFL blockers (he struggled with guys in college) he relied on exceptional speed to shoot a gap or on a delayed blitz, never seen a real display of strength.

But Jesus, the dude has gained 25lbs of solid muscle and dropped his 40 down to a 4.36...as long as the drug test go undetected he may very well have gained that strength that has alluded him in his career. I almost think he would be a decent FS?

 

I think this is where you have to step back a bit and try and take a broader view. We're talking about a guy with 258 tackles, 40.5 TFLs, 12.0 Sacks, 7 Forced Fumbles and 14 PBUs over the last 2 seasons.

I understand that college production doesn't make for pro production but at the same time he's not the type of player that was so deficient at the position that we should be considering a position switch to something that we theorize fits his body type better. He's a linebacker, in all likelihood.

 

He is a LB, I was just throwing that out there given his new found speed. I certainly don't feel like he is deficient, just not a good fit at #19.

 

I heard him compared to Alec Ogletree and that's probably a good comparison.

Except where Ogletree was purported to be a great athlete, Ryan Shazier actually IS a great athlete. And Shazier might be a better person too...or at least I haven't heard the same criticisms about his character that I heard about Ogletree.

A more athletic Alec Ogletree with better character probably would be worth a pretty high pick, come to think of it.

 

once pouncey gets indicted by interpol you can be our center as well.

 

I think he would need to improve his coverage abilities a great deal to compare to Ogletree coming out. Alec had a fantastic second half of the season.

 

we may have to address an immediate need at 19.

 

with the failure to acquire Strief, I suspect we bring back McKinnie or Clabo to play RT, then spend 19 on Zack Martin.

Albert-Martin-Pouncey-Smith-McKinnie

it all begins in the trenches... if we win the line of scrimmage, we go to the play-offs. if we flounder up front, everyone's job is on the line. 19 has to be a sure-thing to complete the offensive line. Zach Martin is the answer.

 

Ogletree definitely has one thing Shazier doesn't. A great NFL body. A linebacker in a linebacker's body. He can hold 245-250 with ease and do so without it over-stressing his joints, ligaments, tendons, etc. He already looks as big as or bigger than Laurinaitis. Shazier on the other hand has more of a safety's internal frame that's been bulked up to play linebacker. I'd be worried about injuries and durability just like Fin-O has mentioned.

 

Not to mention Alec plays ANGRY, that can't be taught or (injected)

 

I don't know about that.

Here's a picture of Shazier running his 40 at his pro day for the scouts at 237 lbs. This is one hell of an NFL body:

 

Is Shazier a Star Trek fan?

 

Looking impressive on the outside doesn't change the fact it's all packed onto a slender, narrow, safety or wide receiver sized frame. That's not an impressive NFL body for a linebacker IMO. That's just a dude who got jacked up to the max in order to be big enough for the position. The only reason he looks that ripped is b/c he has a naturally lean frame with lesser bone density, narrower wrists, waist, knees, ankles, etc that allow his muscles to just pop out at you.




Compare Shazier's 237 in your picture to Ogletree's 242 at his pro day. Ogletree doesn't exhibit nearly as high a percentage of outward muscle mass as Shazier yet he still outweighs him by five pounds here. That's b/c Ogletree has a true NFL linebacker body able to hold the weight appropriately and as such should be more capable of enduring the physical toll of the NFL. If you were to max out Ogletree to the extent Shazier has done, he'd probably weigh 270 pounds, and it would take a toll on him. Not even Lavonte David had to get that jacked up to carry 233 pounds.

 

You can judge bone density from a picture? Amazing.

Alec doesn't look a lot thicker to me. Shazier has produced and has some freaky upside.

 

I know right. It's so difficult to look at someone and tell whether or not they have smaller ankles, knees, waist, wrists, elbows, and narrower shoulders, especially when afforded pictures of them in a more natural state before they got all jacked up like Shazier's above. Yup, it takes a PHD to notice Shazier's frame looks maxed out at 237, where as Ogletree at 242 looks like he's still got plenty of room to go. :001_rolleyes:

No kidding. That's because Alec hasn't maxed out his frame and then some like Shazier has, nor has he needed to. Alec barely appears thicker than Shazier despite not looking half as jacked up. That's b/c more of Alec's weight is core body weight rather than the heavily manufactured kind on a smaller frame like Shazier's. I bet Ogletree played at close to 250 last year, and not an ounce of it looked out of place. It looked natural on him. Shazier on the other hand had to bust his *** in the offseason to reach a disproportionate 237, which draws questions about whether or not he'll be able to maintain the weight, if it was performance enhanced, and whether or not playing at such a maxed out weight for his frame will create problems.

 

The thing about Shazier is that if you are just watching his 2012 sophomore games he struggles with tackling, getting off blocks, taking angles to the ball, reading plays as they unfold etc. It's actually quite ugly. But then if you watch his 2013 junior games it's like night and day. All of a sudden it's like he figured out how to play. Everything improved immensely. He could get off blocks, locate the ball carrier and make the tackle. He is still not a polished product but he's close. He has a lot of upside still and the improvement I saw between his games in 2012 and 2013 tell me that football is important to him. I am scared of how good this guy can become based on potential. I think he can actually play all 3 LB spots.

 

[video=youtube;6F-T3UCL-fE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F-T3UCL-fE[/video]



[video=youtube;xsLmhJuHs8E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsLmhJuHs8E[/video]

[video=youtube;l74vuXXrNq0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l74vuXXrNq0[/video]

[video=youtube;7uCHkBCkT50]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uCHkBCkT50[/video]

 

I shouldn't have responded w/ sarcasm. Sorry.

You are not describing bone density. You are describing his frame and I guess I just don't see as much difference as you do between the two. Alec is going to put on weight and be slower, Shazier is still going to be a freaky athlete who put up exciting numbers. His frame has handled the rigors of the Big Ten w/ lots of snaps so I think he will be fine.

 

Alec Ogletree is an inch and a half taller than Ryan Shazier. His being naturally a little bit heavier has nothing to do with bone density, ankle size, wrist size, or what have you. He's an inch and a half taller.

You can say that Shazier has to work hard to pack on as much weight as Ogletree, and I can just as easily say Ogletree has never come even close to having the work ethic that would be needed to make him look as ripped at Shazier.

 

Lots of medical degrees in this thread.

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Brandin Cooks!