Joe Rose: Ginn's got to make that catch; I'm sold on Henne

we are a team with 2s and 3s @ WR.

Exactly. Look at the catch Justin Gage made for the Titans this weekend. That pass was way higher than the one Ginn was faced with. Gage goes up for it, puts his body on the line to make a play, and guess what... he makes the play. Thats the big problem with Ginn as a WR. No desire to sacrifice his body to make a play. Too... "scared" for lack of a better word. It's a shame really... with the desire to do so, he could be one hell of a receiver in this league with that speed.

"brandon27 wrote:

Exactly. Look at the catch Justin Gage made for the Titans this weekend. That pass was way higher than the one Ginn was faced with. Gage goes up for it, puts his body on the line to make a play, and guess what... he makes the play. Thats the big problem with Ginn as a WR. No desire to sacrifice his body to make a play. Too... "scared" for lack of a better word. It's a shame really... with the desire to do so, he could be one hell of a receiver in this league with that speed.

He didn't even have to sacrifice his body. He wouldn't for sure have gotten hit or at least taken a big one. He did need to jump for it to make it easier, it looked like he simply misjudged it. Henne put it in a catchable spot (though not ideal), but Ginn went after it all wrong. I don't think it had anything to do with him being scared, I think it had to do with reading it wrong (which wouldn't be the first time in the past 3 weeks).

"Stitches wrote:

He didn't even have to sacrifice his body. He wouldn't for sure have gotten hit or at least taken a big one. He did need to jump for it to make it easier, it looked like he simply misjudged it. Henne put it in a catchable spot (though not ideal), but Ginn went after it all wrong. I don't think it had anything to do with him being scared, I think it had to do with reading it wrong (which wouldn't be the first time in the past 3 weeks).

I completely disagree.

Playing scared is Ginns biggest problem.
There is plenty of evidence of this now if you review games he's played in.
He does in fact play scared that is clear evident and that play was just another glaring example of that proof.

Ginn pulled his eyes off and started to crouch expecting a hit. He pulled his arms off early, the term is gator armed the play. He is not mentally tough whatsoever and unfortunately that is not something that can be changed through coaching. You can't coach balls into a player.

Ginn's only benefit to us is as a flyer and as a KR period.

"Stitches wrote:

He didn't even have to sacrifice his body. He wouldn't for sure have gotten hit or at least taken a big one. He did need to jump for it to make it easier, it looked like he simply misjudged it. Henne put it in a catchable spot (though not ideal), but Ginn went after it all wrong. I don't think it had anything to do with him being scared, I think it had to do with reading it wrong (which wouldn't be the first time in the past 3 weeks).

agree. there was no hesitation (which is the indication of fear) in him jumping for the ball but he screwed up the jump. There is no fear, just bad coordination or timing :lol:

"Coral Reefer wrote:

I completely disagree.

Playing scared is Ginns biggest problem.
There is plenty of evidence of this now if you review games he's played in.
He does in fact play scared that is clear evident and that play was just another glaring example of that proof.

Ginn pulled his eyes off and started to crouch expecting a hit. He pulled his arms off early, the term is gator armed the play. He is not mentally tough whatsoever and unfortunately that is not something that can be changed through coaching. You can't coach balls into a player.

Ginn's only benefit to us is as a flyer and as a KR period.

if that is your proof then you are clearly lacking in evidence. thats just you reading into his play your biases. Who knows you could be right but you have zero proof. he didnt alligator that pass. he just screwed up his hand position like the Colts game. there's a difference. he didnt flinch or crouh either. i dont know what your seeing but it wasnt there

"adamprez2003 wrote:

if that is your proof then you are clearly lacking in evidence. thats just you reading into his play your biases. Who knows you could be right but you have zero proof

The NFL actually requires each player to wear a wristband that denotes their "Fear Factor" so we can tell if a player is scared. Shows what you know... :tongue2:

"GridIronKing34 wrote:

The NFL actually requires each player to wear a wristband that denotes their "Fear Factor" so we can tell if a player is scared. Shows what you know... :tongue2:

:lol:

"GridIronKing34 wrote:

The NFL actually requires each player to wear a wristband that denotes their "Fear Factor" so we can tell if a player is scared. Shows what you know... :tongue2:

that's for the tougher players......Ginn was given an ankle bracelet :shifty:

"adamprez2003 wrote:

if that is your proof then you are clearly lacking in evidence. thats just you reading into his play your biases. Who knows you could be right but you have zero proof. he didnt alligator that pass. he just screwed up his hand position like the Colts game. there's a difference. he didnt flinch or crouh either. i dont know what your seeing but it wasnt there

:headscratch:

"Coral Reefer wrote:

I completely disagree.

Playing scared is Ginns biggest problem.
There is plenty of evidence of this now if you review games he's played in.
He does in fact play scared that is clear evident and that play was just another glaring example of that proof.

Ginn pulled his eyes off and started to crouch expecting a hit. He pulled his arms off early, the term is gator armed the play. He is not mentally tough whatsoever and unfortunately that is not something that can be changed through coaching. You can't coach balls into a player.

Ginn's only benefit to us is as a flyer and as a KR period.

Bingo.

Even WITH the alligator-arms the ball still hit him in the hands. BOTH hands.

It was only because he was already cringing and folding up his arms that he muffs the pass.

I challenge anyone to produce the gif and disprove that; you won't, because you can't. Producing the gif would only prove what I'm saying is true.

"jetssuck wrote:

that's for the tougher players......Ginn was given an ankle bracelet :shifty:

:sidelol:

"jetssuck wrote:

:headscratch:

clearly your smiley reflects your biases :tongue2:

"NaboCane wrote:

Bingo.

Even WITH the alligator-arms the ball still hit him in the hands. BOTH hands.

It was only because he was already cringing and folding up his arms that he muffs the pass.

I challenge anyone to produce the gif and disprove that; you won't, because you can't. Producing the gif would only prove what I'm saying is true.

you produce it i dare ya, i double dare ya, i triple dare ya :tongue2: how do you alligator arm a pass that hits both your hands. its impossible to do unless the definition changed

I was hopin Ginn went up and got it but I didn't want him to go up and end up like that kid Best......

If the ball hits you in the hands. you have to make the catch..... call it fear, technique, bad timimg.. whatever. but the ball clearly hit Ginn in the hands. make the catch.

Nahe he ginned it

i thought it was ironic the last throw of the game where Cammarillo did his best Gadson impression with the one handed snag doing the Air Jordan stretch.

We make that catch as a wide reciever group but all the easier catches are dropped when the game actually still mattered. Only down one score with 3 n change to go.

"jetssuck wrote:

that's for the tougher players......Ginn was given an ankle bracelet :shifty:

but what he wanted was friendship bracelet and a promise ring. the barbie that he is.

"adamprez2003 wrote:

if that is your proof then you are clearly lacking in evidence. thats just you reading into his play your biases. Who knows you could be right but you have zero proof. he didnt alligator that pass. he just screwed up his hand position like the Colts game. there's a difference. he didnt flinch or crouh either. i dont know what your seeing but it wasnt there

I'm not lacking in evidence at all.

THe proof is there.
Watch it more closely.

If you think Ginn was all out effort on that catch "attempt" then IMO you need to watch some film of clutch, tough and reliable WR's that have made their names going up over the middle with no fear and coming down with catches.

This toughness issue is not new and it's not a one time assessment from this one play. He's got a very large body of work to pull from at this point which contains many examples of his hesitations in traffic and his avoidance of hits.

Too many people have noticed this trait at this point for it to be a phantom claim.

To the attempted claim that my opinion comes from some anti Ginn bias, it dosen't fit me. If you or anyone were to go back to past posts of mine on Ginn since we've drafted him anyone would be able to verify that. I'm not one of the original Ginn "haters". I'm usually always a wait and see guy with young prospects.

I follow the mantra of player development to a tee and my posts on Ginn have reflected that up till this year. My opinion of Ginn has been a slow and tactful process. At this point, IMO, it's become clear that Ginn clearly doesn't have it.

I am not sold on Henne. He still has a lot of room for improvement. So far he has proven he is unable to beat the blitz.

My opinion of Ginn? He's a Kick Returner trapped in a Wide Receiver's body.

There's two main reasons why I think this

1) I've seen a number of catches where he's more concerned with avoiding contact, than making the catch. A Kick Returner's highest priority is to avoid contact. A Wide Receiver's highest priority is to catch the f'ing ball, and THEN figure out how to avoid contact. I feel like watching him that his priority isn't as much focused on catching the ball as it is trying to avoid contact (be it to make a big play with YAC, or just afraid of getting hit, who knows)

2) The Lobster claws. He's getting a lot of balls painted on the numbers, and going for them (as some other people pointed out) trying to catch it with his arms against his chest/abs. That's obviously the way you handle kick returns (let the egg drop into the basket). His miracle catch against the Jets was this same formula. He caught that ball very much like it was a kick return, and it just fell between his cupped arms, and his chest.

The point I'm trying to make is that Ginn plays his WR position like he's a kick returner. If it comes to getting him the ball and letting him actually catch it with his hands, there's some important piece of the puzzle missing. I'm no expert, so this might just totally be me talking out of my ass, but from the little I've seen and heard people comment on, this is what I've come up with.

"SeanP wrote:

My opinion of Ginn? He's a Kick Returner trapped in a Wide Receiver's body.

There's two main reasons why I think this

1) I've seen a number of catches where he's more concerned with avoiding contact, than making the catch. A Kick Returner's highest priority is to avoid contact. A Wide Receiver's highest priority is to catch the f'ing ball, and THEN figure out how to avoid contact. I feel like watching him that his priority isn't as much focused on catching the ball as it is trying to avoid contact (be it to make a big play with YAC, or just afraid of getting hit, who knows)

2) The Lobster claws. He's getting a lot of balls painted on the numbers, and going for them (as some other people pointed out) trying to catch it with his arms against his chest/abs. That's obviously the way you handle kick returns (let the egg drop into the basket). His miracle catch against the Jets was this same formula. He caught that ball very much like it was a kick return, and it just fell between his cupped arms, and his chest.

The point I'm trying to make is that Ginn plays his WR position like he's a kick returner. If it comes to getting him the ball and letting him actually catch it with his hands, there's some important piece of the puzzle missing. I'm no expert, so this might just totally be me talking out of my ass, but from the little I've seen and heard people comment on, this is what I've come up with.

Last year he didn't. He had very good hands.

How is the catch against the Jets a miracle?

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Last year he didn't. He had very good hands.

How is the catch against the Jets a miracle?

This absolutely never happened...

Nothing has changed.......he's never been able to catch a ball any better than he does right now. He catches balls that fall into his arms or weak ass passes with arc on them like Penny used to throw.

The guy NEVER had good/great hands........gifs or it didn't happen