I'm with ya man. Let's see what the man is made of.

 

I don't understand why Dansby's performance last year or general needs to be apologized for or explained. He's been doing about what you should tend to expect from him. Is he overpaid? A little bit, but that's the nature of getting a guy in free agency like that for the most part.

 

I think fans take issue with him starting out slow due to conditioning issues. That shouldn't have happened.

 

It shouldn't have happened, agreed. But it wasn't just Karlos Dansby. I think he's just been one of, if not the only one, to publicly admit he came in overweight.

 

It wasn't just him but he still came in over weight and not in shape, which clearly effected his play early on. Make a thread about Vontae Davis, and I would be saying the same thing.

 

To be honest, I'm not even sure I can hold him coming out of shape against him. I would put a much bigger share of the blame on Ross. He was a player that was locked out. I surely would not continue working if I had an employer that told me that I wasn't going to be paid until he got a better deal. The team suffered because of it, but it would never had been an issue if the owners didn't lockout the players.

 

That's an understatement if I've ever heard one

Sure you expect to overpay a FA like that. But he was the highest paid ILB in the league(now 2nd) and he hasn't even made the pro-bowl. The contract was given to him in the hope that he would live up to it or at least play at a pro-bowl caliber level with Miami. So it was a bad idea in the first place for Ireland and Parcells to give an above average player that kind of contract, and it's become an even worse idea because their hopes of him becoming a pro-bowler or all pro or at least playing like one have certainly not come true. He has grossly underperformed in respect to his contract since he's been here

 

I think the players see that also. Isn't he a two-time captain since coming to Miami? I know he was one last year for sure.

 

Using the Pro Bowl as a measure for NFL players is about as good a measurement as using their Madden rating.

You're paying a bunch of money for Dansby because he can pretty much play whatever linebacker position in whatever defense you want well. He's a jack of all trades linebacker. He's not the master of any specific skill, but he literally does everything well, and there's going to be a lot of "hidden" stuff that he's getting paid for.

Being one of the few guys who is athletic enough to handle Tampa-2 style deep drops AND is big and strong enough to handle on the line techniques and re-routing a tight end doesn't reflect on the stat-line, for example. It's certainly going to get ignored by people whose gauge of coverage ability essentially begins and ends with the number of interceptions. You can basically say that for any aspect of Dansby's game. He's big and strong enough to handle filling gaps, taking on lead blockers, setting the edge, etc., but he's athletic and has the instincts enough to be a sideline to sideline pursuit guy. Most of the guys who are as good as him at one set of things aren't as good at the other set.

 

Helluva post man. Couldn't agree more.

 

I think there's a decent argument that the Dolphins overpaid for Dansby because they aren't really utilizing his versatility as much as they could be. That isn't really an indictment on Dansby/Ireland/Parcells/whomever as much as it is Mike Nolan though.

 

You're right. The pro-bowl is a glorified popularity contest, I agree. But he has not played at a pro-bowl caliber level while in Miami. He's paid like an all-pro however.

He's a very good player, and in a way I'm glad he's a Dolphin because you can never have too many solid players. I love his versatility for the reasons you mention above. But that doesn't mean he isn't grossly overpaid. I can't say for sure, but I'm willing to bet that any random NFL expert would put him between 5th - 10th best as an ILB. And though I know PFF's rankings aren't gospel, he has ranked 13th in 2011, 12th in 2010, and 19th in 2009 (his contract year). Not good enough to be the highest paid player at your position.

But was Arizona not really utilizing his versatility also?

That's my point. I don't think he was ever one of the top at his position and Miami gave him that contract in hopes that he would become one of the top.

Just think about if the Jets gavea guy like D'brickashaw Ferguson a bigger contract than Joe Thomas. We'd all be laughing in their faces because why pay an above average LT like he's the best at his position.

 

I don't agree that he wouldn't be regarded in the top-5 ILBs in the NFL. You have Willis and Sean Lee who are clearly top-5 at the position, but after that its hard to really peg anyone as much better than Dansby. So much depends on scheme and what the players are asked to do at that position that there isn't much uniform statistical backing behind any subjective opinion on the matter.

I think the fact that he was able to be a big part of the defense last year, and is now expected to be a big part again - in a different scheme - is an example of where his value lies. There are a lot of guys that would be thought of higher than Dansby has been, but wouldn't be able to be a factor in both schemes.

 

Dansby has by far NOT lived up to his contract as much as the apologizers want to apologize.

He has been solid and thats about it. Top 5 ILB? Get serious.

 

You may be right. Maybe I'm going by PFF's numbers a little too closely then.

But what I do know is that PFF watches every play of every ILB. You can't really say that about some of the NFL "experts". So PFF would have to be a decent source for this scenario. And for the past 3 years, they rate 12, 11, and 18 ILB's better than Dansby for the past 3 years. Even the ILBs rated below Dansby aren't far behind.

So, you could possibly have gotten 10 or more other versatile ILBs to do what Dansby has done and paid them a little more than half of what Dansby got. I know it doesn't just work like that, but I'm sure you get the point.

And if you look at all of those top 20 rated ILBs on PFF, you would probably have to say that most, if not all of those guys are a big part of their defenses.

PS - To reiterate, I'm glad the guy is a Miami Dolphin. I think he's a very good player and does nothing but help this team. I just think he's very overpaid with respect to other players at his position.

 

I dont think anyone is hoping he doesnt improve..but to live up to that contract he sure nneds to.

 

Hope you're right, but: The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior

And past behavior from 2 different NFL schemes in 2 different divisions in 2 different conferences over 6-7 years has Dansby at about the 10th-15th best ILB in the NFL. It's almost non-realistic or just overly optimistic to believe he's going to go from very good (10-15th) to great and elite (top 5) next year.

 

With all due respect to PFF, I'm not going to put much stock into their rankings, especially for a position like ILB where there is so much nuance. Not only are the statistical elements of their grades questionable, but they also admit that their ratings could be negatively impacted by what is required of the player (for example, they state that a successful "seal block" gets a grade of 0). From everything I gather regarding their system, it potentially rewards players who are assigned a more aggressive role. If Dansby is asked to play a short zone on every play, and does it successfully, that is not necessarily going to result in high-ratings. If he's asked to blitz or play more aggressive against the run, then that would provide a lot more potential in his PFF rankings.

Certainly they provide a lot of value in many things they provide, but I have a hard time taking their subjective ratings as anything but a very limited and potentially biased indicator.

 

Maybe so. And you're probably right there. The fact that they watch games on probably the same screen and angle that we do says it's far from accurate alone. And their rankings could be questionable on how they're derived.

But I don't know any other source that watches every play of every ILB in every game. So, for example, when Jamie Dukes is talking about his top 5 ILB or some crap like that, I take it with a grain of salt because I'm confident in saying he probably hasn't watched every ILB's every game. That alone discredits his rankings.

It just seems like we're doing a lot of jumping through hoops here to make it seem like Karlos Dansby is an elite ILB who is not grossly overpaid when any neutral non-biased observer would take one look at that contract and his production and disagree immediately.

 

But thats my point - how are you measuring his production?

 

He doesnt pass the statistical test and that's ok...sometimes figure lie. I dont miss a play of Dolphins football and to me he is an above average LB and thats all. There is absolutely no reason to think Dansby HAS been anywhere close to a top 5-10 ILB, I recognize he was dropped into coverage often by Nolan and he did a decent job. But Im truely baffled that anyone who watches football considers Dansby an elite LB. There is just no evidence of it.

 

Sure there is. The fact that as you even admit, he did well when asked to drop into coverage. This combined with the fact that he's a rather efficient pass-rusher and he is good when asked to be aggressive against the run. He is good to very-good in every facet. In aggregate this makes him very valuable, as very few LBs in the NFL are as proficient in all those areas.

 

To me he is good in coverage, good as a pass rusher, and good against the run.

What does that equal? A GOOD LB. But certainly not a top 5 or anywhere close imo.

 

With the only statistics at hand that observe every play of every other player at the position like PFF.
With my own analysis of watching a player like him compared to an elite level player like a Patrick Willis. Or even in comparison to what Zach Thomas once was. To what Ray Lewis was and is now. To Brian Urlacher in the past and even when he's on the field now. Bart Scott, Brian Cushing. Karlos Dansby impresses me nowhere near some of those guys, yet he's paid better than them with respect to how they were in their prime.

Both of which agree with the general consensus from the league that Karlos Dansby is a very good player. But not great and certainly not worth his contract.

 

Im sorry but using Ray Lewis as an example is really poor. There is a legitimate case that Lewis isn't even a 3-down LB now. Bart Scott doesnt have the versatility of Dansby. Zach Thomas and Pat Willis are HOF players, so I'm not sure that really proves anything.

Cushing is great, and I would say better than Dansby. Though to be fair he is given much more opportunity.

 

32 NFL GM's would likely take Ray Lewis over Karlos Dansby as their MLB for 2012.

 

Id love to see a link.

 

You will not find one, you also will not find one that says 32 NFL GM's would take Karlos Dansby over Austin Spitler....your'e missing the point.

I understand Dansby is a Dolphin and we all should support him but to pretend he is elite? Homer-ism at its best imo.

 

Karlos Dansby is definitely an upper echelon inside linebacker in this year. I don't know about "elite" but that's just a word and you can morph your standards for what that word means to fit any argument. I'm just saying he's definitely a top tier guy, and one of the very best cover linebackers in the entire league.

 

Yes, I'm a homer. Great argument.

The fact that people are saying Ray Lewis is currently better than Dansby really says everything about how people perceive performance at that position.

 

Your using hidden facts as your reasoning for calling Dansby elite...it's just an opinion with no basis and thats ok.

I could make the same laughable argument that Davone Bess is better than Wes Welker and even though I would look dumb trying to defend that because there is ZERO evidence just a Aqua and Orange opinion...nobody can prove me wrong I suppose despite it being pretty obvious.

 

No offense but what you're accusing Stringer of doing, you just got done doing yourself by whipping out your own "32 out of 32 NFL GMs would take ____ over ____" piece of spectral evidence.

 

Out of the 37 linebackers that have played at least 75% of their teams' defensive snaps in at least 2 of the last 3 years, Karlos Dansby ranks #12 in pass yards allowed per snap, #8 in "stops" per snap, #12 in quarterback pressures (incl. hits & sacks) per snap, #10 in PFF "Overall" subjective rating per snap, #8 in missed tackles per solo tackle.

And if you combine all those rankings together only Patrick Willis (43) and Brian Cushing (44) come out with a better score than Dansby (50). Karlos Dansby is the guy that is pretty much upper echelon at everything but not elite at anything, but because he's so well-rounded, he's actually one of the best linebackers out there.