Matt Roth v Patrick Surtain 3 years later..
31 replies
padre31Luxury BoxOPA unlooked at view on this week's game is:
Who is more valuable to their team this season, Pat Surtain or Matt Roth?
They more or less were traded for on another in 2005, Surtain helped the Chiefs to a 9-7 record in 05, Roth as a part timer helped us make it to 6-10 that year.
Both teams then promptly nose dived into the lower echelon of the NFL, but this year, Roth who was considered a disappointment last season, has converted to SSLB.
Patrick Surtain has 1 Int this season and 9 tackles and 3 passes defensed
Matt Roth has 4 sacks and 2 forced fumbles this year and 48 tackles and 2 passes defensed.
In fairness to Surtain, he has only played in 6 games this season.
So three years later, who has come out "ahead" in that trade?
padre31Luxury Box"#1dolphinsfan wrote:
i would still take Surtain over roth
I used to think that, but now I've changed my view, Matt Roth is as important to our Run Defense as anyone on the defense, teams simply have to double him to try and run to his side of the field.
And his 4 sacks this year are a career high, his 48 tackles also are a career high, as are his 2 forced fumbles, Roth has shown what he can do in his first year at SSLB.
Surtain on the other hand, is still a good corner, but he is also pushing 33, Roth is 26 and can get even better at OLB...
wpgfishfanNew MemberThey both will not be starters next year
Surtain was great but is too old and slow now. All those lingering knee problems he had year have taken there effect
Roth is a good run stopper on the edge. I think he sticks but will have more of a limited role next year
Well after 15 years Bettman lets hockey come back to Winnipeg. Thanks for wasting 15 years
Vengeful OdinForum VeteranAt their stage in their careers right now, I'd probably take Roth, though that hasn't always been the case, particularly when Matt struggled as a 4-3 DE. Surtain is an aging corner, and at this point may be better suited to moving to saftey. Roth has been a beast at times in the running game. I seem to recall a stat where teams only try to run to his side 2 to 3 times a game. That's been a huge boon for us this year.
funkdatNew Membereeeee' i don't think this is fair to do to ether one of them.
But at this point Patrick Surtain makes a'lot more money then he's worth and Roth makes a'lot less.
Anytime you have a player that's 29 and still wants to get paid like he has the best years a head of him................if you can get some picks for him i think you should do it every time.
:hammertime:
PhinsRockLuxury BoxI think you have to take Roth just for the age factor. Surtain in his prime was 10 times the player Roth is or ever may be, but Surtain's best days are way behind him and Roth's are strictly in front of him. If they were the same age, it would be Surtain all the way, but this doesn't seem like a fair poll to me due to the age factor.
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padre31Luxury Box"Vengeful Odin wrote:
At their stage in their careers right now, I'd probably take Roth, though that hasn't always been the case, particularly when Matt struggled as a 4-3 DE. Surtain is an aging corner, and at this point may be better suited to moving to saftey. Roth has been a beast at times in the running game. I seem to recall a stat where teams only try to run to his side 2 to 3 times a game. That's been a huge boon for us this year.
Exactly, Roth does have some room to improve, KC "rented" Surtain because they thought they were close to be a contender, and that is how trades should be viewed...solely on how they turned out for both teams.
As for Roth being replaced...maybe...his first season at OLB...in his entire football life, he has done his job pretty well, there is room for improvement but he hasn't hit a ceiling yet.
padre31Luxury Box"funkdat wrote:
eeeee' i don't think this is fair to do to ether one of them.
But at this point Patrick Surtain makes a'lot more money then he's worth and Roth makes a'lot less.
Anytime you have a player that's 29 and still wants to get paid like he has the best years a head of him................if you can get some picks for him i think you should do it every time.
It is not really a question of fairness fundat, if the Chiefs had made the AFC Title game, they would look like geniuses...if Roth had not shown some life this year, he would have been accurately tagged with "disappointing"..
BigDogsHuntNew MemberRoth but I dont agree with the language to describe him; dont agree with the language associated with Surtain either.
I think Roth is the better option..but not saying he is more valuable to us.
BDH -
"To me, there are three things we all should do every day of our lives. Number one is laugh. You should laugh every day. Number two is think. You should spend some time in thought. And Number three is, you should have your emotions moved to tears, could be happiness or joy.
"If you laugh, you think, and you cry, that's a full day. That's a heck of a day. You do that seven days a week, you're going to have something special."
Jimmy V. (Mar '93)
padre31Luxury Box"BigDogsHunt wrote:
Roth but I dont agree with the language to describe him; dont agree with the language associated with Surtain either.
I'm curious BDH, what is the disagreement with the language?
I think Roth is the better option..but not saying he is more valuable to us.
Sparano and Parcells and Ireland put such a premium on stopping the run, Roth having only two plays a game run at him speaks volumes about how effective a run stopper the man is for us, and he does make the occasional big play as well.
I think one of his fumble recoveries won a game for us earlier in the year.
BigDogsHuntNew Member"padre31 wrote:
I'm curious BDH, what is the disagreement with the language?
Nothing major, just when I try to answer polls I do it based on the initial questions asked "Who would you rather have right now..."
But when descriptions are used in addition, I tend to disagree with the additional info on occasion.
Surtain, he and Will Allen would be great
Matt Roth, he has turned into a key player for us
I wouldnt want Surtain for the money regardless of if pairing him with Allen would potentially be great "and not knowing our pass rush pressure - it may not be great.
I dont think Roth has turned into a key player....I think he simply has a high motor and plays his role well - no different than many others on this team. I applaud him for it. But he isnt a KEY player in the same breath as Chad, Jake, Carey, Ronnie, Ricky, Joey, Will, Bell, Hill have been.
So, thats the language, instead of simply saying who would you rather have (trying to take into account role, position of need, Age, salary) I have to frame your descriptions into whether I agree with them, etc.
I chose Roth, cause I think at this stage he is who I wanted over keeping Surtain. I wanted the pick, the pick equaled Roth, so I wanted Roth.:hi5::up:
BDH -
"To me, there are three things we all should do every day of our lives. Number one is laugh. You should laugh every day. Number two is think. You should spend some time in thought. And Number three is, you should have your emotions moved to tears, could be happiness or joy.
"If you laugh, you think, and you cry, that's a full day. That's a heck of a day. You do that seven days a week, you're going to have something special."
Jimmy V. (Mar '93)
funkdatNew Member"padre31 wrote:
It is not really a question of fairness fundat, if the Chiefs had made the AFC Title game, they would look like geniuses...if Roth had not shown some life this year, he would have been accurately tagged with "disappointing"..
No i know, but still they didn't even trade us Roth.....They traded us a draft pick that became Roth.
I love Roth's play and even if we would of got Kevin Burnett like " Bill and his boys " picked over Roth, derrrr , i still take the 2 round pick for the player that has played his best football already.
:hammertime:
ConuficusLuxury BoxJust a point of order: Roth is in his 4th year, and thus you missed out that Roth helped us finish 9-7 in '05. We went 6-10 in '06.
But, I would take Roth as he is younger and can help us for longer than Surtain who I didn't expect to play this long yet alone another year or two. The guy is very slow compared to his former self.
cnc66Luxury BoxI've become a Roth fan. After listening to Pasqualoni go on about him, I think there is much to look forward to. Padre makes the important point.. this is his first year playing this position. Every little thing that slows down for him is a plus for us. Given some time for that slowdown to happen, his coverage abilities will improve too. Putting him in coverage is almost a trick play but he has two defensed balls and in my opinion, will pick one some day too. I've also come to enjoy his interviews too.. he's like your best buddies little brother. The one that isn't very bright that you mess with every chance you get, never forgetting that if he snaps, he's mental... like the terminator. Sometimes he looks like Fred Munster, other times Mongo, but I like him no matter.
Rocky RaccoonStaff:( I miss Surtain.
Loved watching him play for us. Him and Madison as the corners with Brock Marion and Brian Walker as the safeties was fun to watch.
That being said, Surtain is getting up there in age and Matt Roth has played well at times this season and seems to have more room for improvement.
NJFINSFAN1Luxury BoxSurtain does not even start for the Chiefs, I liked him when here, but he has been washed up for a few years.
Roth by a landslide!
TheAnswer385Forum Veterananyone see surtain run with the ball last week? looked like it was a linebacker running in cement.
StitchesLuxury Box"TheAnswer385 wrote:
anyone see surtain run with the ball last week? looked like it was a linebacker running in cement.
I thought the same thing. Rivers almost ran him down.
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padre31Luxury Box"NJFINSFAN1 wrote:
Surtain does not even start for the Chiefs, I liked him when here, but he has been washed up for a few years.
Roth by a landslide!
:lol:
I think Surtain has been injured this season, but if Roth had not stepped up his play, Surtain would have made the Chiefs winners on this deal...
SamphinNew MemberHmmm, I went with Surtain. I like Roth, but the guy leaves so much of his potential untapped that it bothers me.
Plus, you can never predict the what ifs, but Surtain in Miami is a different player than Surtain in Kansas City. We all pretty much agree that our secondary is very thin and will need to be addressed this offseason. Surtain would have lended some much needed veteran leadership as well as shored up the depth to a degree.
We also are thin at linebacker WITH Roth playing, so who knows.
I think the bottomline is that Surtain was a player that offensive coordinators gameplanned around. Roth is not.
Surtain and Madison. Then throw in Marion and Freeman. :sigh: The good ole days.
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...my arm
...my legs
.......and my brain."
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:sidelol:
padre31Luxury Box"Samphin wrote:
Hmmm, I went with Surtain. I like Roth, but the guy leaves so much of his potential untapped that it bothers me.
Moving him out into space has been a boon for him and "us", and if folks remember, Tuna and Sparano had Roth ADDING weight in the preseason to play DE in the 3-4, he went up to 285 or higher, when they stood him up at OLB, that extra weight became a problem for Roth's mobility and quickness, then he also has to learn how to drop back in Coverage, he's been putting in a full day's work since Sparano and Tuna arrived and he has played "okay".
That is squeezing some talent out of a heretofore disappointment.
We also are thin at linebacker WITH Roth playing, so who knows.
Mainly because our team has been remarkably healthy this season, but Charlie Anderson has stepped up his play with two sacks, Torborg may have a chance this weekend subbing for Channing Crowder...
Though IMO, Roth is a ILB/1st and 2nd down player..he would fit that role well...stack'em and stuff'em...
I think the bottomline is that Surtain was a player that offensive coordinators gameplanned around. Roth is not.
Disagree, Roth sets the edge on the strong side, teams have to plan for Roth if they want to run to the strong side because Matt Roth is just a run stuffing madman at times...:up:
SamphinNew Member"padre31 wrote:
Moving him out into space has been a boon for him and "us", and if folks remember, Tuna and Sparano had Roth ADDING weight in the preseason to play DE in the 3-4, he went up to 285 or higher, when they stood him up at OLB, that extra weight became a problem for Roth's mobility and quickness, then he also has to learn how to drop back in Coverage, he's been putting in a full day's work since Sparano and Tuna arrived and he has played "okay".
That is squeezing some talent out of a heretofore disappointment.
Mainly because our team has been remarkably healthy this season, but Charlie Anderson has stepped up his play with two sacks, Torborg may have a chance this weekend subbing for Channing Crowder...
Though IMO, Roth is a ILB/1st and 2nd down player..he would fit that role well...stack'em and stuff'em...
Disagree, Roth sets the edge on the strong side, teams have to plan for Roth if they want to run to the strong side because Matt Roth is just a run stuffing madman at times...:up:
That is the key caveat for me. Surtain was a shut down corner and is still probably better than any corner on the roster not named Will Allen. He essentially took half of the field away in zone or the opposing teams biggest receiving threat in man. His coverage helped the pass rush and freed the safeties up to blitz, play closer to the line and help in coverage where needed.
His play has always been much more of a constant than Roth. Don't get me wrong, I like Roth and his intensity, but he has yet to play up to his second round draft pick status in my opinion.
padre31Luxury Box"Samphin wrote:
That is the key caveat for me. Surtain was a shut down corner and is still probably better than any corner on the roster not named Will Allen. He essentially took half of the field away in zone or the opposing teams biggest receiving threat in man. His coverage helped the pass rush and freed the safeties up to blitz, play closer to the line and help in coverage where needed.
All true...do notice though you are using infinitives, not current language..
Surtain was the past mi amigo, the Past is like a different country, that is not how we do things now.
His play has always been much more of a constant than Roth. Don't get me wrong, I like Roth and his intensity, but he has yet to play up to his second round draft pick status in my opinion.
Roth moved to a new position, he has played well and anchors our Run Defense from the SSOLB spot, granted the Chiefs made the playoffs back to back years after acquiring Surtain, there is no danger of that happening this season, whereas we might...and Roth is a large part of that turnaround.
Remember the Raiders turning us into roadkill last year? That has not happened this season for a reason...and Surtain would not have made a bit of difference in that change.