Miami defence...better than the Jets?

Sounds like he's arguing that their defense was better LAST YEAR. Tell him to keep living in the past b/c the future looks pretty dim for the Jests.

"Cass wrote:

So I'm having a fairly good discussion with a Jets fan about defence and specifically how I think Mia > NYJ. However, I'm slowly losing the argument I think.

Here is his last post:

Any idea's how I can counter that? He seems to have flanked me using logic and facts the fiend! :lol:

How have the jets improved from last year? Other than wilson, what young players will have gotten better? What position was upgraded?

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No, I don't think so. Ryan is a Defense savant; Nolan is exceptional, but not at Ryan's level.

Watch Ryan's D on the field and you would swear they're playing 12 or 13 guys. That's how good Ryan is.

Hate to say that, but it's fact.

Jets have no pass rush which hurts them, and this preseason they can't stop the run.

That being said, I would say they are very different defenses, but both very good.

They also will have two raw young players playing the DL and lost Ellis who was the heart and sole on that line.

"NaboCane wrote:

No, I don't think so. Ryan is a Defense savant; Nolan is exceptional, but not at Ryan's level.

Watch Ryan's D on the field and you would swear they're playing 12 or 13 guys. That's how good Ryan is.

Hate to say that, but it's fact.

I dunno man. Looked like the Savant was playing a man short the two times that Henne torched his ass in 09 and 2010.

whilst we all dislike the JESTS ... i have to respect Ryan and their defense

a comparison to me is simple .... which team creates the most pressure -- and as a result more turnovers

who will be better this year is a story waiting to unfold .... but there is no doubt in my mind that our ability to pressure the QB week in and week out will determine this comparison AND our season (really both of our seasons).

this is precisely why .... although i think Misi is a nice player and will continue to improve, we needed to upgrade our ability to pressure of that end -- and while its a nice story, JT is doubtfully the answer we need. I don't care how well he starts the season - i care how strong he is at the end of the season, when we'll really neeed it.

I think we can be, the dirty secret about the Jest D is they rely heavily on scheme over talent, if you look at their Lb corps, or Safeties, these are no dominating type players (D Harris is close) and in the NFL, schemes get solved the longer they are used, this is yr #3 for Ryan, the NFL knows what they are about and how to gameplan for them so I suspect we see an erosion of performance this yr.

As for Nolan's D, to me his schemes are not exotic, he simply relies on his athletes beating your athletes, what I hope is we see some of the things Nolan had to use in Denver when they had very little talent on D, if you add creative, effective scheme, to superior athletic talent, you have a dominant D.

Go to agree that the Jest have a pretty good D, but I think a lack of depth hurts them over the course of the season. I also think they leave plenty of gaps in the middle of the field that can be exploited. Covering running backs that can catch also seem to be a weakness of their D. Their main strength is Ryan himself, love him or hate him I'm sure most people can agree he does D very well.

"NJFINSFAN1 wrote:

Jets have no pass rush which hurts them, and this preseason they can't stop the run.

That being said, I would say they are very different defenses, but both very good.

They also will have two raw young players playing the DL and lost Ellis who was the heart and sole on that line.

Pirouha has quetly become an upper echelon NT NJ, but if you go position by position on their starters on defense, how many would you trade their dolphins counterpart for?

You can say Revis and Harris, but both have huge cap hits

Would you trade Pace for Wake?

Thomas for Misi?

Leonhard for Clemons or Bell?

Harris for Dansby even?

I don't think I would, and we added Odie/Burnett/Edds, who did they add?

No one.

"PHINANALYST wrote:

whilst we all dislike the JESTS ... i have to respect Ryan and their defense

a comparison to me is simple .... which team creates the most pressure -- and as a result more turnovers

who will be better this year is a story waiting to unfold .... but there is no doubt in my mind that our ability to pressure the QB week in and week out will determine this comparison AND our season (really both of our seasons).

this is precisely why .... although i think Misi is a nice player and will continue to improve, we needed to upgrade our ability to pressure of that end -- and while its a nice story, JT is doubtfully the answer we need. I don't care how well he starts the season - i care how strong he is at the end of the season, when we'll really neeed it.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're selling the team short. We may not have an elite rusher opposite Wake, but outside of Pittsburgh and Indy who has two quality edge rushers? I think we have an excellent mix of pass rush and pass coverage ability. The Jets have great corners and no rush, the Steelers have a great rush and no corners, ditto for the Ravens. The Packers and Eagles have both, as do we. The Eagles have a solid DL but garbage at LB. The Packers are good across the board but they're depth along the front 7 is questionable, especially on the DL. All defenses, all teams, have weaknesses, ours is Yeremiah Bell in coverage, Smith in run support, and a penchant for NOT cashing in on turnover opportunities. Bell is gonna be Bell again, perhaps a step slower, Smith still doesn't want to tackle, but the TOs should turn around given how many easy opps we blew last year.

Also, our rush doesn't have to come off of the edge. Wake pretty much has that handled. What we lack is a guy who can bring it from the middle. Soliai needs to improve his bull rush, Starks, Odrick and Merling need to give us a lil somethin'. Dansby and Burnett are capable of blitzing, and their coverage abilities will allow Nolan to send his corners more often, be it Allen/Sapp from the slot or Vontae off the blind side. Bell and Clemons have both shown they can get after the QB. Our pass rush can come from just about anywhere and I imagine we've spent a lot of time preparing for the probability that teams are going to focus on shutting Wake down this season.

I wish the D got more attention, both in the press and amongst the fans. They, not Henne, are the key to the season IMO but the offense is getting all of the pub and as a result I think the opinions on the team overall are a little deflated. We'll see.

"padre31 wrote:

Pirouha has quetly become an upper echelon NT NJ, but if you go position by position on their starters on defense, how many would you trade their dolphins counterpart for?

You can say Revis and Harris, but both have huge cap hits

Would you trade Pace for Wake?

Thomas for Misi?

Leonhard for Clemons or Bell?

Harris for Dansby even?

I don't think I would, and we added Odie/Burnett/Edds, who did they add?

No one.

Good points. We'll actually have 6 upgrades on Monday Night vs the Pats that we didnt have the last time we played them.

-Carpenter out Burnett in
-Sapp out Allen in (IMO)
-Jason Allen out Smith in
-Baker and ??? out Merling and Odrick in
-McDaniel in, he was suspended for the Pats game last year

Even w/o those guys we handled NEs offense for most of the game, it was 7-6 at the half. The ST meltdown blew everything up but IIRC the Pats had one TD drive that didnt start in our territory. 3 of the 5 TDs were scored while our defense was on the bench. Another TD drive started at our 15 after the blocked punt. Truthfully, the D "allowed" 13 points. Moss was shut out, Welker did nothing either. I'm not afraid of those guys, at all. I don't think our defense is, either.

"padre31 wrote:

Pirouha has quetly become an upper echelon NT NJ, but if you go position by position on their starters on defense, how many would you trade their dolphins counterpart for?

You can say Revis and Harris, but both have huge cap hits

Would you trade Pace for Wake?

Thomas for Misi?

Leonhard for Clemons or Bell?

Harris for Dansby even?

I don't think I would, and we added Odie/Burnett/Edds, who did they add?

No one.

True, but there is also no denying Ryan know's how to plan a defense. I personally think the Jets take a step back with the defense this year. They are really struggling with the running game right now.

"NJFINSFAN1 wrote:

True, but there is also no denying Ryan know's how to plan a defense. I personally think the Jets take a step back with the defense this year. They are really struggling with the running game right now.

I haven't caught much of their games, do you think its an effort (preseason) thing or a real issue? I can't imagine a Jets D that isn't a bitch to try and run on.

we improved our inside ability to blitz with Burnette .... a huge improvement over Crowder in that category .... and i think we can switch between Dansby and Burnette - so this could be the 1st season in a god awful long time that we might be able to create pressure from the inside. but, that does not change the fact that we need more pressure from Misi/JT.

"Cass wrote:

So I'm having a fairly good discussion with a Jets fan about defence and specifically how I think Mia > NYJ. However, I'm slowly losing the argument I think.

Here is his last post:

Any idea's how I can counter that? He seems to have flanked me using logic and facts the fiend! :lol:

Lost me right there, as its utterly impossible.

"RGF wrote:

Lost me right there, as its utterly impossible.

In England, even the Jets fans are polite.

The Jets in weird kind of way remind me of the Dolphins in the sence, that they both have a good D and an inconsistant O,both have a QB still learning and improveing the big difference is the Jets have gotten to the playoffs and done well,they did not win the big game but they were there.A few plays here and there and you never know.

"NJFINSFAN1 wrote:

True, but there is also no denying Ryan know's how to plan a defense. I personally think the Jets take a step back with the defense this year. They are really struggling with the running game right now.

The way I see it NJ, no team is going to fool the rest of the NFL for very long, there are literally 31 teams with front office and coaching staffs with hundreds of yrs of experience at dissecting whatever dominant scheme of the day, as we saw with the Wildcat, someone will figure it out and then it boils down to matchups of athletes vs athletes.

Back when Wanny was running herd we simply had the best athletes on defense in the league when they got older or what have you, we lost those matchups. Even Saban who is well thought of, could not out scheme the NFL for more then a year and a half.

You want a team built of players that can beat their opponent strait up with no fluff, the team that has more players that can win their individual battles wins..Thats what I like about our team, that have played the best teams strait up,never being outmuscled, usually winning the majority of individual battles, usually controlling the LOS, but falling short schematically on offense, and simply very poor special teams...Well thats the evolution when you come from 1 and 15, not all components are gonna be a strength after 3 years, year 4 is about balance as a team, upgrading any position possible.