Mike Wallace..showing signs of life?

"djphinfan wrote:

either way..the guy seems like a good teammate...

he does seem to have just enough of that swagger/confidence that goes with a winning attitude, without being a complete and total diva. The only regrets I have about his signing is we still don't have a big receiver we can count on for red zone type jump balls. Then again, Marino had Duper and Clayton and seemed to manage with them!

"GMJohnson wrote:

It's a quarter-quarter-half zone, so technically there is no one "covering" Wallace unless he enters their zone. Milliner has a quarter, Landry has a quarter, Reed has a half, Pace has the flat, Harris and Davis have the hook/curl responsibilities. However, because of the trips alignment to the bottom of the screen and Reed's alignment, Hartline pretty much has a 1 on 1 vs Cromartie.

You can think whatever you'd like as to the Jets' motives, I'm just putting the info out there.

That's true. I was using the term "cover" loosely. But you are making my point -- there is no aspect of that coverage that is specific to or tailored to Wallace. As Stringer said, it would be the exact same coverage if it was Hellen Keller instead of Wallace. Wallace had absolutely no impact on that play.

"GMJohnson wrote:

Do you not see the corner and the safety waiting for Wallace should he try to go down the field?

I'm guessing that's why he breaks his route off, and I'm pretty sure that's why Tannehill immediately went to Hartline.

They are playing zone. They are waiting for whatever receiver enters their zone. That could be the Dolphins Mike Wallace or 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace being wheeled in his coffin.

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

Wait a second...that would mean Wallace had an effect on the play due to the coverage being geared more toward him and his side of the field. We ALL know that's not true.

How was the coverage geared toward Wallace? There were 3 receivers bunched together on his side of the field. And it was the ILB that picked him up (again, using that term loosely).

"GMJohnson wrote:

Let's see, here's Cromartie on Wallace, again with Reed helping over the top. Notice Cro giving up a decent sized, 7 yard cushion.

Wallace breaks his route off at 14 yards, Cromartie hasn't just turned his hips, he's turned his back and is in full flight down field.

OK, balls out, incomplete to Hartline, play's over. Where is Cromartie? He's still 7 yards away, and Reed is now 29 yards from the LOS.

But hell, we were deep in our territory so maybe the Jets were just playing conservative. Surely if we were in scoring range they'd play it a little tighter, no? Again, Cromartie on Wallace with Reed over the top. Notice Cro is still playing off.

Wallace breaks his route off at about 13 yards, where is Cromartie? Back turned, hauling ass down field.

Wallace makes the catch, where is Cromartie?

Wallace gets up off his knees and turns up field, where is Cromartie?

He's at home, waaaashing his tights :lol:

This is funny. The CB on Hartline is lined up giving a bigger cushion than Cromartie is on Wallace. Reed is just playing centerfield -- he is lined up directly across from the center. Yes, Cromartie played Wallace poorly. He seemed to lack confidence in his ability to change direction -- the tv commentators repeatedly pointed out that he seemed to be moving gingerly. In the second sequence Reed is again just playing centerfield. He's aligned directly across from the center. There is no indication that the defense is doing anything special to defend Wallace.

I thought the conversation was about how real elite speed in this type of package can affect the mentality of a corner or safety to adjust their alignment or compensate their position out of fear that is condusive to creating space for others?

"GMJohnson wrote:

Stringer is a knowledgeable guy, he knows better. I think this has more to do with the guys who were against signing Wallace to begin with grading him on a bit of a curve.

I have no problem with Wallace. He's overpaid but so are a lot of guys. That happens in FA. But grade him based on what he does -- catches, yards and TDs etc and not on the fiction that his 5 yard curl on one side of the field is what caused a TD on a quick slant on the other side of the field. That's just nonsense.

"djphinfan wrote:

thanks for taking the time to do that stuff bro.

if you look at the safety on two of those plays, because his corner has turned and started to run, you could tell he either sh)( his pants and panicked and started to run anyways, or his cue to start running deep to help him is when his corner turns his back to the los and runs..basically on both plays you see panick by not one, but two players

that's pretty freakin funny...end of debate if you ask me...space..in a game of inches.

Honestly, I feel like this has entered the Twilight Zone. I have no idea how you are seeing that you say you are seeing. On both sequences Hartline's guy lined further back than Wallace's guy. On both sequences, Reed lined up in the center, directly across from the center. Cromartie was playing with a hip injury and was clearly moving gingerly and having trouble swiveling his hips. That's about it.

"Fineas wrote:

This is funny. The CB on Hartline is lined up giving a bigger cushion than Cromartie is on Wallace. Reed is just playing centerfield -- he is lined up directly across from the center. Yes, Cromartie played Wallace poorly. He seemed to lack confidence in his ability to change direction -- the tv commentators repeatedly pointed out that he seemed to be moving gingerly. In the second sequence Reed is again just playing centerfield. He's aligned directly across from the center. There is no indication that the defense is doing anything special to defend Wallace.

The game doesn't stop at the end of your last sentence..it's very obvious both the corner and the safety were afraid that they were gonna get beat deep, hence the bail out by the corner and the complete lack of regard for his initial responsibility by the safety...

I can assure you corners everywhere would be laughing their ass off at cromartie on those two examples, and they don't want a safety covering for him in such desperate fashion.

"djphinfan wrote:

I thought the conversation was about how real elite speed in this type of package can affect the mentality of a corner or safety to adjust their alignment or compensate their position out of fear that is condusive to creating space for others?

Those pics don't show that at all.

"Fineas wrote:

Honestly, I feel like this has entered the Twilight Zone. I have no idea how you are seeing that you say you are seeing. On both sequences Hartline's guy lined further back than Wallace's guy. On both sequences, Reed lined up in the center, directly across from the center. Cromartie was playing with a hip injury and was clearly moving gingerly and having trouble swiveling his hips. That's about it.

Fineas. Ok forget the alignment part of this conversation, how bout we discuss how Wallace creates space for others with his threat of elite speed?? You do see that in those pics right?

"Fineas wrote:

Those pics don't show that at all.

What exactly does pic #2 and pic #5 in terms of the corner and safeties play on Wallace show you?

"djphinfan wrote:

The game doesn't stop at the end of your last sentence..it's very obvious both the corner and the safety were afraid that they were gonna get beat deep, hence the bail out by the corner and the complete lack of regard for his initial responsibility by the safety...

I can assure you corners everywhere would be laughing their ass off at cromartie on those two examples, and they don't want a safety covering for him in such desperate fashion.

Cromartie was playing with a bad hip -- the recurrence of an old injury that he aggravated against Baltimore. He barely practiced before the Dolphin game because of it and it was uncertain as to whether he would even be able to play. He himself has said that it affects his explosiveness and ability to open his hips and change direction. The commentators mentioned how gingerly he was moving half a dozen times during the telecast. The Jets have struggled to prevent the big play, which is why they picked up Ed Reed after he was cut by the NFL's worst team and immediately put him in the starting lineup. Can we stop pretending that the way Cromartie played him was anything close to typical?

"djphinfan wrote:

What exactly does pic #2 and pic #5 in terms of the corner and safeties play on Wallace show you?

That they are playing to not let Wallace get behind the defense, even though the safety is letting 2 receivers run up the seem to cover Wallace on the sideline.

"djphinfan wrote:

Fineas. Ok forget the alignment part of this conversation, how bout we discuss how Wallace creates space for others with his threat of elite speed?? You do see that in those pics right?

No, I do not see that. At all. I see the S in the center reacting to Clay running up they seam in pic 2 and pretty much the same thing ( but can't tell from the pic if it is Clay or someone else) in pic 5.

"BayAreaFinFan wrote:

That they are playing to not let Wallace get behind the defense, even though the safety is letting 2 receivers run up the seem to cover Wallace on the sideline.

How is the safety letting receivers run up the seam? Looks to me like his is reacting to and looking right at those guys. He only seems to run toward Wallace when the pass is thrown to him.

"Fineas wrote:

No, I do not see that. At all. I see the S in the center reacting to Clay running up they seam in pic 2 and pretty much the same thing ( but can't tell from the pic if it is Clay or someone else) in pic 5.

If you look at the safety in both pics his move is lateral to behind lateral, clay in the 2nd pic is way too far up the field for him to be making a lateral move to cover clay in that spot..in the 2nd he sees that his corner has flipped his hips and is in an outright sprint to the endzone so he's gonna try to cover for him, once again an initial lateral move in that direction... in both cromartie sh&$ his pants..

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

So essentially you two "gurus" believe defenses respect Hartline and Wallace equally...

K. :up:

If Wallace and Hartline went in motion, and switched sides, the defense isn't changing. The Jets aren't calling their defense based on Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline, or any other Miami WR. Their defense is based on what they want to do.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

"Fineas wrote:

How is the safety letting receivers run up the seam? Looks to me like his is reacting to and looking right at those guys. He only seems to run toward Wallace when the pass is thrown to him.

In pic 2 he is clearly stepping up field while clay is taking his route into the middle of the field. All while the ball is being thrown to the opposite hash.

"BayAreaFinFan wrote:

In pic 2 he is clearly stepping up field while clay is taking his route into the middle of the field. All while the ball is being thrown to the opposite hash.

You can't possibly know that from the still pics. He does not appear to be looking at Wallace -- he appears to be looking at Clay.

"djphinfan wrote:

If you look at the safety in both pics his move is lateral to behind lateral, clay in the 2nd pic is way too far up the field for him to be making a lateral move to cover clay in that spot..in the 2nd he sees that his corner has flipped his hips and is in an outright sprint to the endzone so he's gonna try to cover for him, once again an initial lateral move in that direction... in both cromartie sh&$ his pants..

Again, you can't say that from the still pics. I don't see it that way at all. I see a deep S watching the Clay running up the seam toward him and reacting to that. That is what he is supposed to do.

"Fineas wrote:

You can't possibly know that from the still pics. He does not appear to be looking at Wallace -- he appears to be looking at Clay.

You can if you look at his hip turn...unless he's playing with zero technique. He is in no position to cover clay. Also why not cheat towards Mathews if Tannehill is looking at Hartline (left hash) the whole play?

"Fineas wrote:

I have no problem with Wallace. He's overpaid but so are a lot of guys. That happens in FA. But grade him based on what he does -- catches, yards and TDs etc and not on the fiction that his 5 yard curl on one side of the field is what caused a TD on a quick slant on the other side of the field. That's just nonsense.

I'd have to say that it might not be just because of Wallace that a 5 yard curl on the opposite side of the field turned into a TD. But i will say that finally having a player like Wallace on the oppposite side of the field is surely helping it happen. When the defense is playing an over the top zone like that, and with that cushion the Cb's are giving gives a player like Wallace a chance to MAKE the center fielder come his way. Not every joe schmoe Wr is going to get that respect just because he has speed.

Is he overpaid? So far its an easy answer but I'm glad he's here.

"BayAreaFinFan wrote:

You can if you look at his hip turn...unless he's playing with zero technique. He is in no position to cover clay. Also why not cheat towards Mathews if Tannehill is looking at Hartline (left hash) the whole play?

That's not how I see it. He certainly is in no position to cover Wallace. Wallace is already stopping at the 32. The S is not running toward him at all.

"Fineas wrote:

I have no problem with Wallace. He's overpaid but so are a lot of guys. That happens in FA. But grade him based on what he does -- catches, yards and TDs etc and not on the fiction that his 5 yard curl on one side of the field is what caused a TD on a quick slant on the other side of the field. That's just nonsense.

WADR you sound very confused.

Defenses don't know if Wallace is going to run a 5 yd curl, a post or a post corner. In fact, our offense calls for receivers to read the coverage and adjust their routes accordingly. Wallace is curling up bc the Jets are taking away the deep route, Harrtline is running to the open spot in the zone. Reed appears to be playing deep middle but at every instance he is rotating over Wallace at the snap.

I know you don't have the all 22 camera angle so you're very much in the dark as to what's going on in the secondary, I'd respectfully suggest that you stop arguing and listen instead.