We’re in a new era. The two most unstoppable QBs (Cam Newton and Russell Wilson) run over 100 times per year. The Bills just offered a long-term deal to a QB they ran 104 times last year. Let’s be clear, Ryan’s not about to do that! But according to the reference I checked, Ryan ranked 21st amongst NFL QBs in rushing attempts last year. If I told you that Rodgers and Kaepernick ranked ahead of Tannehill, you wouldn’t be shocked. But what if I named guys like Bridgewater, Fitzpatrick, Bortles and Winston? You’d be a little surprised, right?
The problem is that last year Ryan rushed fewer than 40 times and that’s pretty low. To put that in perspective, Ryan was rushing only as often as Tom Brady! By contrast, Andy Dalton rushes about 60 times a year. So do Andrew Luck and Aaron Rodgers. Alex Smith rushes 70-80 times per year. As I pointed out initially, there were 20 other QBs who all compiled more attempts than Ryan, and some of those didn't start all 16 games! Moreover, the majority of those other QBs sustain those averages. You can also look outside the more successful QBs. For example, the only year Nick Foles had real success, he rushed at the same rate as Alex Smith.
I looked at Ryan’s supposed “break out” year of 2014 and guess what I saw? That year he ran 55 times which was enough to rank him 8th out of all QBs. The problem is that once you dip below 40 attempts, you start seeing guys who either aren't very mobile or who aren't very good. For a guy like Ryan, amassing 50 attempts shouldn't take much effort. We're talking about maybe 1 run per game here more than he's doing now. Ideally you'd like to see 2 or 3.
We all took notice of it in 2014 and it seemed to help the offense. It was part of what made Ryan Tannehill a far more popular guy in the media as well. People felt he was finally playing his own game. Well, it ceased last year and I think it was painfully obvious that without it (and a few other things) people started turning on Ryan.
Let’s pump the breaks and just go back to square one. I think it’s fair to ask, why would you draft or stick with a guy like Ryan Tannehill if you weren’t planning on using his mobility and athleticism!? Wasn’t that supposed to be part of the deal with Ryan? In my view, every week in which Ryan isn’t moving around is another week he’s being under-utilized and we’re only seeing a portion of his total value to the team.
But to be clear, I don’t think it’s just about designed runs as much as it’s about a mentality. Ryan needs to be more assertive and he needs to become a QB that looks for opportunities to scramble and pick up those free yards.
Gase didn’t run Cutler more than usual, but I can’t help but wonder if Gase won’t explore this avenue with Tannehill who is younger and more qualified to do it.
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#1 fan, dolfan7171 and Agua like this.
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Its hard to say if it was definately related, but once Lazor was fired during last season, RT began to run a lot more than he had up to that point. He had 84 of his 141 rushing yards last season during the final five games.
Actually, he ran for 245 yards during the first 8 games of 2014, but then only 66 yards during the second half. Going back further, from the last 8 games of 2013 through the first 8 of 2014, he ran for an even 400 yards during that 16 game span. That was followed by 112 the next 16 games. Something changed between the San Diego and Detroit games of 2014, I don't know what, that changed how he ran the ball from then onward.DolphinGreg and Fin D like this. -
He DEF needs to run more. I agree that Tanny needs to get the right attitude about it as well. If it's there in front of you, screw whatever Gase wanted and just take it.
Rickysabeast likes this. -
I don't think Tannehill has that improv mentality you see with Newton or Wilson, and I don't think you can teach it either.
Tannehill just needs to improve his pocket presence. We don't need him squirreling away like Newton or Wilson. He just needs to know when to take off or how to buy himself that extra half second in the pocket and we'll have a better QB just from that.DolphinGreg and dolphin25 like this. -
I don't know about teaching it, but the mentality can be developed through repetitively doing it in live action.DolphinGreg likes this.
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Denver won with a corpse at QB. Don't drop the new era card on us just yet.
Tanny can do whatever he wants, but it doesn't make sense with as many weapons as he has. Wait a minute, it does if the half a season to get a new offense down theory is correct. I'd actually be more for him running in the first half of the season. However, if he's clicking on offense I don't want to see him run.xphinfanx likes this. -
I do hope that Tannehill runs more this season, in 2014 it seemed like a good majority of his games were sparked by having a big run. I thought it was a confidence booster for him.
DolphinGreg likes this. -
I think that analysis is putting the cart before the horse.
There's no analysis I've ever seen that correlates QB rushing/rushing attempts with winning. Also generally, there is no link between rushing efficiency and winning. There is a link between rushing attempts and winning, but that is because teams that are ahead on the scoreboard rush more than those who are behind in order to run out the clock.
What there is, though, is a link between passing efficiency and the expected run%. Basically in situations where there is higher than normal rushing, passing is more effective because the defenses are loading up to stop the run, and when situations where teams pass more than average then passing efficiency is lowered, as the defenses dial in pass prevent defenses.
So Miami's passing suffered last year, not because Tannehill specifically didn't run enough, but because the TEAM didn't run enough. Yes having a QB who can help out with team rushing is a positive, but being a good passer is much more important to a successful QB than being a good rusher. Quite frankly if QB rushing lead to winning in the NFL you'd see teams running the wishbone.
I do think that the phins would have been more successful if Tannehill had rushed more in the last 2 years. And we did see in games were he had some successful rushes that the pass D loosened up a bit because they had an LB spying on him.
The goal of rushing in general in the NFL, and QB rushes in particular, is to loosen up the pass defense and to make passing more effective. At the end of the day it is more important for the Dolphins to rush more consistently as a team than to say player X should rush more.MAFishFan, finfansince72, Tin Indian and 7 others like this. -
He took enough hits last year? You want to add more scrambles to that? Might as well warm up Moore and Doughty
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This is like blood in the water for DJ.... Lol... I think he just found a new best buddy in Greg..
Pandarilla, DolphinGreg, Limbo and 2 others like this. -
It's highly probable that Philbon and Lazor told Ryan to limit his runs. Would that be out of fear of him getting injured? I don't know. But they sure as hell didn't do anything to stop the barrage of abuse he was taking behind the LOS. I'm thinking some of the hits he was taking in sacks coulda been absorbed into a few QB running plays. In games where he was playing more like a rebel, he ran more and almost always with positive results. We'll probly see something in between this year. He'll run more than 2015, but maybe not a ton more.
Finatik likes this. -
The best example for not being able to teach improv in football is the rugby sevens at this years Olympics. Fiji destroyed the two most structured teams, Japan and Britain, In the semi-final and final because they play almost totally unstructured rugby.
The teams that play with structure look for patterns and for players to do the expected thing in set situations. Fijian rugby isn't learned at school with coaches, it's learned running around on the beach with their friends.Pandarilla likes this. -
You win on offense with threats...you make great athletes think instead of knowing where their going.
He's basically a one dimensional QB unless the script tells him to run a read option, which was less than two times a game..another ridiculous stat relative to the skillset..
It's a flaw that he doesn't know how to make a defense pay for turning their backs on him..
top 3 QB of all time Steve young summed it up perfectly, he said when he would drop for his first time in a game, if the defense didn't respect his running prowess he would scrap the play and run...and do it again and again, until he felt his personal threat was being respected..
It ain't rocket science..it's called winning football..btfu149, Finster, Pandarilla and 1 other person like this. -
My post said essentially 2 things. First, Tannehill has been running at a below average rate. Second, he's got the youth and build of someone who should theoretically be running at an above average rate.
What's even more telling is that once you remove all those QBs with 10-15 years of experience in the league, it's very hard to argue that most of the younger guys who are producing aren't making use of their mobility. The majority of those young guys, the successful ones anyway, are clearly finding ways to run, scramble and punish the defense in the way that DJ pointed out above.
Most of all, I just wanted to put in perspective how little Ryan was running last year. I was blown away by some of the names that ranked ahead of him in total rushing attempts. That is the shocker that puts in perspective the need for change. It's certainly not the offense, but the evidence shows that for a young QB it should be a feature of the offense. -
As for whether it can be taught. I think it's simply a strategy that should be pushed a little bit over the next couple years. You can't immediately change how a QB plays but someone who's young and athletic like Tannehill can obviously still develop himself and get used to doing new things.
To what extent he can evolve, I don't know, but that's the word I'd use. You're not teaching this as a skill so much as helping Ryan to evolve into a QB that will tuck and run on a few occasions. Ideally you'd like to see this 2-3 times a game more than what we were last season. Even 1 or 2 would make a big difference. To me, that should just take a little encouragement.
To me this is most critical because of how it may affect your ability of an offense to convert 1st downs. Moreover, I don't see Tannehill as a great pocket passer. He's good enough in that arena but from my perspective he has to use his athleticism if he's to become a better QB. His value lies in moving around I think. I'm not talking Kaepernick or Wilson kind of running, of course, but I really admire the rate at which we see Luck, Rodgers and Smith move and I'd like to see Ryan join that club.djphinfan likes this. -
I'm not talking about calling anything differently, I'm talking about a spontaneous read by the QB when dropping..he looked at defenders, if they were zoned in on just covering their man, he would look for the lane and run..then when they started worrying about both threats from the QB he would cut you up real nice.
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Ok then this debate is over because it always comes back to this..we'll see in year 5 if he possesses the trait that will determine his ceiling as a QB..
So far I haven't seen a trace of the instinct I'm talking about..dolphin25 likes this. -
I believe he had 32 rushes last year...averages 2 a game...now how many of those were read options??.. Probably most, I would say he may of taken off on his own accord about 8 times on the season....
A ridiculous number relative to the skillset.
But he was apparently neutered of this..idk..I tend to think it's an instinctual/smart thing to do, not sure why any coach would be opposed..Bill Walsh wasn't..Pete Carroll isn't.DolphinGreg likes this. -
I'm with DJ on this one. It's SO MUCH a part of how athletic QBs play the game it's hard to envision that a guy is going to start showing you something in year 5 that he really hasn't prior but nevertheless all we can do is hold out hope.
The kind of stuff that DJ and I are talking about has nothing to do with watching the Panthers and everything to do with admiring just how smart QBs like Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers and Andrew Luck are. They seem to understand in a more general sense that their job is to move the ball forward. 55 or 60 percent of that might be through the air, 35 to 40 percent might be by handing it off but there's a little left over and that's the improvisational kind of stuff we haven't seen.
Looking at the 2014 numbers just puts this in perspective.
A week ago I asked folks what they thought Ryan actually needed to improve on. People said general things but when pressed for real answers, it usually remains vague. To me, this is at least something we can point to in the stat column (and that we can also see with our own eyes) which at the end of the day reflects critically on Ryan's ability to play the position. This is just one thing we should be paying attention to that has to do with the QB himself rather than the overall success of the offense as a whole.dolphin25 likes this. -
a lot of folks here don't seem to think of it as an important trait or form of attack on a defense, I've been arguing about it since Ryan was drafted..I don't think some understand the derivative affects it can have on a defense..they would rather their QB not run for some reason, my philosophy is to win at all costs..cause you might just be home watching the playoffs the past four years..dolphin25 and DolphinGreg like this.
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There are some specifics.
One is obviously what was already mentioned with better pocket awareness and knowing when to run. Another is running a better hurry-up or no-huddle offense, especially in the last 4 minutes or so. Way too often Tannehill isn't getting the offense set up and ready to play fast enough when time is running out. I'd also add decision-making in general.. like don't throw for an obvious 7 yard completion when you need 9 yards. Finally, improve the "clutch" stats so that we see tangible evidence the drop-off in pressure situations is at least around league average.
That's at least 4 specific things you can either measure or at least see relatively easily whether he's improved on. And really, if he does that he should be consistently above average as a QB and good enough for this franchise long term.dolphin25 and DolphinGreg like this. -
The only time you want your quarterback running is if the oline isn't doing their job or if everyone is covered. If the oline can just improve to middle of the road then the only time we want tannehill running is if no one is open which hopefully will be few and far between
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I may be mistaken and recalling incorrectly, but didn't you oppose this viewpoint vehemently? I know you changed your mind on Philbin as to whether or not he was a good choice, but that choice shouldn't have changed your position on this.
Now, if you didn't oppose that viewpoint vehemently, I am mistaken and it was someone else. -
Tannehill is not a natural scrambler, physically. He's not smooth, he's not particularly quick, nor elusive. Go watch his WR highlights and they're pretty rough. He has a non-quick, lumbering style. Good for read-options, designed runs and maybe rollouts because he is pretty fast in a straight line.
But I don't know if runs per year is such a great measure. Tony Romo has ran for many miles on the football field, but it's all behind the LOS and he only has 30 runs a year or so.dolphin25 likes this. -
I'm not taking issue with that. I noted that in my post that you admitted to be wrong about him. But changing your mind of whether he was a good coach or not, shouldn't all of a sudden change your opinion that he jettisoned players who were outspoken. Anyway, not important.
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Both of these statements are fair. Tannehill could be accused of looking mechanical in nearly everything he's done to this point and as far as the results are concerned, I think his accuracy has been average at best (my biggest worry, personally).
On the other hand, if Ryan were to get with coaches that didn't box him in the way Philbin and Lazor did and was afforded a better pocket, we'd probably have seen a lot more instances where the QB stepped up and was able to slide outside once the edge rusher moved passed him. These are perfect examples of when a QB can scramble for positive yards.
To date, Ryan really hasn't had a good enough line to get passed those front line defenders though so he's rarely pushing passed the LOS. Still, it's a two-fold operation. The line's gotta give him a chance and he's got to recognize the opportunity. -
I couldn't agree more. Moreover, think about where future QBs are coming from--college. What does college football look like? It's big business so college coaches have figured out that it's more important to win on someone else's terms than it is to lose on your own. Unless the NFL stops drafting NCAA players, the NFL will generally slide in that direction as well. Old school football with it's blocking backs and TEs and it's hard-hitting LBs is giving way to an NFL where you send your TE scouts to a basketball court and judge a LB by his speed and acceleration. Oh, and FBs need not apply.
As you probably know, I went to Clemson. I'm a huge Clemson fan. I grew up 30 minutes from the school. Now, does that mean I want to see Tannehill replaced with DeShawn Watson next year? Not really. But you know what? I wouldn't have wanted the Dolphins to draft Mariota either, but I think he'll do fine in Tennessee. That tells me that my preconceived notions of what makes a QB are not necessarily in line with what's actually happening. Don't miss the point people. Watson's instincts may be no better than Tannehill's so that's not the point. What's important is to understand the value of a QB that can dictate to the defense what portions of the field need to be defended. Ideally you want the defense defending all portions of the field. Under Tannehill, the opposite has happened. Under Philbin, Miami's awesome was easy to contain.
Another thing I said a week ago was that I thought the era of the dominant future-HoF pocket passer (i.e. 2004-2010, wherein Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Rivers and other were the key to success) was over. Of all the QBs in the NFL below the age of 32, how many look like they're destined for Canton? Not many based on actual skill. I see a couple that'll have a shot, sure, but it's clear that dominating is harder than ever.
The NFL is as intelligent, informed, data-driven and competitive as it's ever been and that's key. In the future, the only philosophy will be "win-at-all-costs." As a fan of Miami, I'm fine with that.
Oh, and as a Clemson fan I would really appreciate it if Buffalo stopped drafting our guys.
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