OV now in team lead in sacks

"slickj101 wrote:

I love how a thread about how good OV has been doing turns in to a ***** about Ireland thread in under 10 posts :lol:

To be fair, every thread seems to do that.

"PhinsRDbest wrote:

I agree, it's like saying JJ Watt was a wasted pick when the Texans already have Mario Williams. To me Wake's level of play/shelf life is hard to gauge.

But you hit that time when his value is at its highest and that age starts creeping up.

"padre31 wrote:

Or stick with the 4-3, and trade Wake, upgrade OL with the #1 and #3 he'd bring

Move Jordan to Wake's slot, and save cap $$$

Be better to fire Coyle tbh, we have a built in hybrid 4-3 and the players to man it, he is not getting it done.

Not unusual, of one notices first yr a DefCord has lots of success, second yr offenses catch up, Coyle has not made the next move to counter that, to me it is evident.

BUT, it is soo much easier to man a 4-3 then a 3-4, eegads keep that dammnable 3-4 defense off my Dolphins

Will you stop saying trade wake..its bothering the hell out of me...Make the dam pieces fit.

All this from a kid who played a year and half in the NFL before he was 23 .

Not bad and hopefully his detractors will take notice. He will get better imo and it is up to the team to utilize him best and or properly. To me he is a football player and while he isn't perfect he makes plays around the line of scrimmage , which is what I noticed from him in college.

"Stitches wrote:

Good for OV. Though I think Jordan should play more over OV, he's much better than last year where I thought Shelby outplayed him for the most part.

Different roles, Jordan w/his hand on the ground on the strongside is just not built for it

"dolfan22 wrote:

All this from a kid who played a year and half in the NFL before he was 23 .

Not bad and hopefully his detractors will take notice. He will get better imo and it is up to the team to utilize him best and or properly. To me he is a football player and while he isn't perfect he makes plays around the line of scrimmage , which is what I noticed from him in college.

Funny how quick people are to write off young players huh? I see it all the time. If a player doesn't tear it up his rookie year, he's a bust in their minds. Look at how many people are already calling Jordan a bust. People never learn.

Most of the time, players need a couple years. Not to mention, Vernon was raw coming out and was drafted at 21.

He has room to improve for sure, but I'm encouraged. I've always loved OV.

"padre31 wrote:

Good for him, to me he does not do one thing at an elite level, he does most things well and has a good motor

As a player, I'd compare him to Marco Coleman, not the greatest athlete but he made plays.

He's no longer the Baby Squid, I think I'll elevate him to Squidward status

only in your strange world he ever was the baby squid to begin with....its so painful to write this nonsense name

"padre31 wrote:

Or stick with the 4-3, and trade Wake, upgrade OL with the #1 and #3 he'd bring

I stopped reading after you said trade Wake.

Yeah, trading Wake is dumb on multiple levels. His talent, work ethic, leadership, experience, teaching, etc.

Can't do it.

"Rocky Raccoon wrote:

Funny how quick people are to write off young players huh? I see it all the time. If a player doesn't tear it up his rookie year, he's a bust in their minds. Look at how many people are already calling Jordan a bust. People never learn.

Most of the time, players need a couple years. Not to mention, Vernon was raw coming out and was drafted at 21.

He has room to improve for sure, but I'm encouraged. I've always loved OV.

For me the big thing was how truly young he was and how he did not have the best situation at UM . Different sport of course but in hockey if you are born after September 15 you enter the draft the following year. Lots of reasons to look at a very late birthday , early entry player like OV with just a bit of tolerance imo .

"Alex13 wrote:

only in your strange world he ever was the baby squid to begin with....its so painful to write this nonsense name

Which was the point, tbh, most did not give much thought to Vernon, give him a bad nickname and voila!

One thing that does bother me about his game is his play on the field does not match up to his pre draft workout numbers, when you watch feet/first steps the way I do, Vernon's physical talent is NOT matching up to his on the field play.

Could be just his learning curve though, right now he plays more with power than with speed

"slickj101 wrote:

I love how a thread about how good OV has been doing turns in to a b*tch about Ireland thread in under 10 posts :lol:

Yea. If only Ireland had drafted ov, then maybe we could put a positive spin on this.

"dolfan22 wrote:

For me the big thing was how truly young he was and how he did not have the best situation at UM . Different sport of course but in hockey if you are born after September 15 you enter the draft the following year. Lots of reasons to look at a very late birthday , early entry player like OV with just a bit of tolerance imo .

That seems to be something common among UM players recently, particularly ones that came to UM when Randy Shannon was still there.

To me though, this is one of the things that makes me really scratch my head about this coaching staff. I had someone whose opinion I really trust tell me that he really thinks Joe Philbin has a good feel for the pace of player development. I think you can see a few examples of that. Olivier Vernon is mentioned here, and he has improved a great deal, though it may not show up in PFF's overall grades. Olivier is currently in the top 25 among 4-3 defensive ends in the NFL in run stopping and pass rushing. He's become a quality player overall.

Another player that I really think the fans refuse to see the improvements that have been made in his game is Nolan Carroll. That kid has improved as much as anyone from year one to year two of this coaching staff's tenure in Miami. Kevin Coyle had a great reputation in Cincinnati for developing his defensive backs. Jimmy Wilson is another player that has come a long way in a year's time. Jared Odrick has become a monster inside in his second year. We have been talking a lot about the coaching staff adapting, and it appears that Kevin Coyle did just that before the year started. At the end of last season, when questioned about whether Odrick should be moved inside, Coyle basically stated that he liked him as an end. The way Miami played defense last year, they were more of a hybrid front with Odrick playing more of a 3-4 end role in the defense than a true 4-3 end or a tackle. Coyle did what he essentially said he wouldn't do. He moved Odrick inside, which has paid off big time, and a lot of that is probably because they saw signs of Olivier coming on during OTAs and training camp.

Not every move made works out so well though. Reshad Jones last year was one of the top safeties in football, and I don't think any defender on the team has fallen off as much as he has from last year to this year. You can likely pinpoint the reasoning to this though. Last year, Reshad was allowed to freelance. This year, he has been put into coverage a bit more, and I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of effectiveness our linebackers have had in coverage.

As far as Dion Jordan goes, I still believe that some of his lack of playing time has been related to his shoulder, and I don't think this front office wanted his shoulder to be a reason. Jeff Ireland doesn't want his #3 pick to not be as effective because they drafted a guy who already had a bum shoulder.

"Alex13 wrote:

only in your strange world he ever was the baby squid to begin with....its so painful to write this nonsense name

Lol, baby squid was funny, he wasn't a fully grown Kracken was the reference I believe, now he's graduated to squidward..lol..come on Alex, join the fun

"djphinfan wrote:

Lol, baby squid was funny, he wasn't a fully grown Kracken was the reference I believe, now he's graduated to squidward..lol..come on Alex, join the fun

i would like to....but i'm still so pissed about last weeks loss...really these close games that we lose takes it toll on me....its now 4 days since sunday...but the feeling in my stomach is still the one like a girlfriend broke up with me

Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk

"djphinfan wrote:

Lol, baby squid was funny, he wasn't a fully grown Kracken was the reference I believe, now he's graduated to squidward..lol..come on Alex, join the fun

Funny thing, Odie was taking heat from me b/c he had so few sacks, this year, he's done fine

Baby Squid always produced in some form, which tells me the talent is there, now he has no real good nickname to be had.

Good nicknames revolve around a style of play and performance, OV just is the right guy in the right place at the time...there are none to be had in that...

OV, lack of protection by design springs to mind...but uhm, yeah...

"Rocky Raccoon wrote:

Yeah, trading Wake is dumb on multiple levels. His talent, work ethic, leadership, experience, teaching, etc.

Can't do it.

You'd never get anything near what he's worth to the team. People talking a 1st and a 3rd are high imo.

I love Wake as much as anything but I don't think the market for him would be like that at all.

I think if you're considering a move to a true 3-4, the value of having guys like Wake, Jordan, and Vernon on the outside and their natural pass-rush abilities outweighs (by a wide margin) the abilities of Ellerbe and Wheeler to blitz in the middle as we have with the current setup.

I think that what you'd need is a solid, run-stuffing LB to play in the middle alongside Dannell Ellerbe. Koa Misi is NOT that guy, despite everyone seemingly wanting him to play inside. Miami needs someone like a Brandon Spikes (free agent) or to draft a guy like Shayne Skov or A.J. Johnson to handle those duties. Ultimately, I think you can end up lopping guys like Philip Wheeler and Koa Misi off the roster. Miami still has enough flexibility on the outside to play Dion Jordan as a strongside OLB to take on TEs, and you can swap Olivier Vernon with him if you want a more "run-heavy" defense. If you're looking at a LB depth chart, this is what you'd have, IMO:

Rush - Cameron Wake - Josh Kaddu (off Practice Squad) - Jason Trusnik (Special Teamer)
Moe - Dannell Ellerbe - Jelani Jenkins
Mike - <Not filled>
Sam - Dion Jordan - Olivier Vernon

You can have Wake and Jordan/Vernon alternate sides of the formation versus strength, or you can play them on sides a la Pittsburgh as I think all 3 guys have enough prowess against the run to make it hold up. The problem you run into is the DL as you're going to have to make an investment there. I would argue you're going to have to make a big investment there anyway if the defense remains the same as you have Soliai and Starks set to be free agents, and Jared Odrick only has a year left. I don't know if A.J. Francis is a guy you want to be your top interior backup (I know that stings a lot of members). You're going to have to invest in the trenches to make it work.

*Edit - Just adding this in. If the above scenario ends up being that way next year, I think you'd have to look at how the 49ers used their OLBs in Aldon Smith's rookie year. Ahmad Brooks was entrenched, and they started Paras Harylson, but replaced him with Smith on 3rd downs pretty much exclusively until late that season.

With Miami, I think you'd want to have Wake and Jordan on the field, given Wake's pass-rush abilities and Jordan's abilities to be multi-dimensional with rushing or coverage. You can sprinkle in Olivier Vernon into the base packages when it's a run-heavy situation or just as purely a sub to give guys a rest. But, you can still get all 3 of them on the field in nickel and other sub packages quite a bit. I think this, personally, is more valuable than having guys like Ellerbe and Wheeler playing in the base package we have now and it's why I'd push for the change to the 3-4; you just have to be willing to make the investment with respect to the D-line; which you probably end up having to do even without a schematic change.

Vernon has been underrated this year, he's come into his own. But I think he's very much a guy that you have to put at a certain position for the most part. When he was playing RDE like Odrick played it last year, he was getting destroyed. Check out his PFF grades week 1 and 2:

Vs. CLV: -4.0
Vs. IND: -5.9

When Wake got hurt, he became the primary edge rusher and his alignment kicked out wider, and they started going with a more traditional line-up where the LDE lined up closer to the ball and more frequently shaded or covered, and the RDE was wide and performed well.

Right now OV's grade is +0.1 overall, but when you put into context he's coming from a -9.9 hole he's performed quite well.

"padre31 wrote:

Good for him, to me he does not do one thing at an elite level, he does most things well and has a good motor

As a player, I'd compare him to Marco Coleman, not the greatest athlete but he made plays.

He's no longer the Baby Squid, I think I'll elevate him to Squidward status

I would be thrilled if he turned out to be another Marco Coleman...not there yet

ProFootballFocus has put up it's pass rushing productivity stats for this year. The Fins DLine is currently ranked at #4 overall and is the ONLY AFC DLine in the top 5. They have the Fins DL ranked ahead of Carolina and just under the Rams. Cinci is at #7. They also have our LB's at #10. The DB's at #8.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/11/27/pass-rushing-productivity-team-defenses/

Individually:

DL- Wake #3, Jordan #19, OV #18 (4-3 only). Odrick #5, Starks #7, Soliai #16 (out of all DT's and NT's).

LB- Wheeler #3, Misi #30 (4-3), Ellerbe #20 (all).

DB- Jones #7, Clemons #51 . Carroll #63, Grimes #85 (all).

Miami Dolphins: Cornerback Brent Grimes has the most coverage snaps this year for a cornerback without allowing a touchdown at 450.

"cuchulainn wrote:

ProFootballFocus has put up it's pass rushing productivity stats for this year. The Fins DLine is currently ranked at #4 overall and is the ONLY AFC DLine in the top 5. They have the Fins DL ranked ahead of Carolina and just under the Rams. Cinci is at #7. They also have our LB's at #10. The DB's at #8.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/11/27/pass-rushing-productivity-team-defenses/

Individually:

DL- Wake #3, Jordan #19, OV #18 (4-3 only). Odrick #5, Starks #7, Soliai #16 (out of all DT's and NT's).

LB- Wheeler #3, Misi #30 (4-3), Ellerbe #20 (all).

DB- Jones #7, Clemons #51 . Carroll #63, Grimes #85 (all).

Those are beyond awful rankings.

"Nappy Roots wrote:

Those are beyond awful rankings.

EDIT: These are pass rushing productivity rankings for this season only.

Overall, Soliai has been a huge disappointment this season. He hasn't been the same guy since the knee injury in the Colts game. Same with Misi, who has been oft injured and missed a lot of plays. Ellerbe has been a puzzle. He missed some time to injury, but has struggled. Wheeler is one of the league leaders in missed tackles. Jones has seemed lost. I thought Clemons and Grimes both were much better that those rankings.

"RoninFin4 wrote:

I think if you're considering a move to a true 3-4, the value of having guys like Wake, Jordan, and Vernon on the outside and their natural pass-rush abilities outweighs (by a wide margin) the abilities of Ellerbe and Wheeler to blitz in the middle as we have with the current setup.

I think the what you'd need is a solid, run-stuffing LB to play in the middle alongside Dannell Ellerbe. Koa Misi is NOT that guy, despite everyone seemingly want him to play inside. Miami needs someone like a Brandon Spikes (free agent) or to draft a guy like Shayne Skov or A.J. Johnson to handle those duties. Ultimately, I think you can end up lopping guys like Philip Wheeler and Koa Misi off the roster. Miami still has enough flexibility on the outside to play Dion Jordan as a strongside OLB to take on TEs, and you can swap Olivier Vernon with him if you want a more "run-heavy" defense. If you're looking at a LB depth chart, this is what you'd have, IMO:

Rush - Cameron Wake - Josh Kaddu (off Practice Squad)
Moe - Dannell Ellerbe - Jelani Jenkins
Mike - <Not filled>
Sam - Dion Jordan - Olivier Vernon

You can have Wake and Jordan/Vernon alternate sides of the formation versus strength, or you can play them on sides a la Pittsburgh as I think all 3 guys have enough prowess against the run to make it hold up. The problem you run into is the DL as you're going to have to make an investment there. I would argue you're going to have to make a big investment there anyway if the defense remains the same as you have Soliai and Starks set to be free agents, and Jared Odrick only has a year left. I don't know if A.J. Francis is a guy you want to be your top interior backup (I know that stings a lot of members). You're going to have to invest in the trenches to make it work.

I think we have the edge guys for a 3-4 but we'd suck on the inside. Soliai and Starks are FA, Ellerbe and Wheeler aren't the down hill LBs I thought they'd be.

Considering the amount of nickel that's required these days I think sticking with the 4-3 is the right move.

"GMJohnson wrote:

I think we have the edge guys for a 3-4 but we'd suck on the inside. Soliai and Starks are FA, Ellerbe and Wheeler aren't the down hill LBs I thought they'd be.

Considering the amount of nickel that's required these days I think sticking with the 4-3 is the right move.

The problem with converting is what Miami might not have, depending on what happens with Soliai and Starks up the middle. You're going to need a NT if Soliai doesn't come back, and you're going to need at least one or two more guys who can play 3, 4, and 5 techniques. You have Odrick and...Starks if he comes back and that's it.

As far as nickel goes, I don't think that matters. I think you'd end up seeing a 3 man line of Vernon, Odrick/Starks, and Wake with Jordan, Jenkins, and Ellerbe playing the LB spots. That lineup can be executed from either base package. For example, say you sign Brandon Spikes (highly unlikely, but I think he's the #1 rated 3-4ILB by PFF against the run), you'd take him off on passing downs and bring in Jenkins. You'd also be taking off the nose, which Miami does a lot now anyways, and depending on whether you wanted to have two bigger guys up front (like San Francisco) you can plug in Vernon or have guys like Odrick and Starks play.

Speaking of San Francisco, Demarcus Dobbs could be an interesting, cheap free agent signing. He was originally an oversized TE with them and played special teams, but they've made him into a sub-package lineman (why you're always puzzled to see #83 on defense with them). They run a 2-4-5 nickel because their LBs are so damn good, but Dobbs comes in to spell Ray McDonald and rush with Justin Smith. He's become quite good at it, and I think if you're moving to that type of defense he's a good, low cost, high value signing.

Other guys I think you can target that aren't going to break the bank would be Aubrayo Franklin, Brandon Deaderick, Colin Cole, and maybe Terrence Cody (I'd be hesitant on this). The first 3 all have a history of signing one year deals, which could be beneficial, especially if you're drafting guys that you're unsure will be immediate contributors. For instance, if you draft a Louis Nix, I want a vet as well for insurance purposes.