http://www.miamiherald.com/news/more-info/story/995983.html
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Doesn't surprise me, though in jest at least, we are talking about Mississippi!
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My quote was a bit misleading. Mississippi is one of the locales mentioned, it's much more global in scope.
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
It does make a mockery of the sterotype of religious faith = intolerance doesn't it?
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edit: Here's the link to the study http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/4/0/1/9/pages240197/p240197-17.php
The conclusion was that beliefs that emphasized the positive side of spirituality tend to increase subjective well being while beliefs that emphasize the negative side appear to decrease subjective well being.
For Catholics specifically, the belief in hell was the only negatively correlated belief.
IIRC the biggest positively correlated factor for every religion was service to others. -
don't buy it
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To quote Coleman in "Trading Places"....
"I believe religion is a good thing...taken in moderation, of course."
:wink2:anlgp likes this. -
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dolphindebby and Ohiophinphan like this.
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Clergy are held to a higher ethical standard by society, law enforcement is held to a higher criminal standard, teachers are often held to a higher moral standard, etc.
Within our tradition there are some things that are allowed of lay folks that are not permitted for the clergy because we are to be exemplary models of the one standard God expects of all.
Judaism sees itself as a "nation of priests to serve God" therefore asking of themselves that their actions bespeak their intentions.
The distinction may be subtle but it is important. I hope I am close. -
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And being held to a higher standard by God or whomever is only done for those who "know better" or "are better" at least in their own minds. People are not "chosen" by random lottery. They are not "chosen" b/c they were exactly like everybody else. The idea behind any religion that believes their people are "chosen" is that they are special in some way. -
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
While I would agree that in value before God, according to my tradition, all have equal value before God, I would argue from the point of view of my sacred texts and personal observation that not everyone is gifted in the same way.
Again from my perspective, we are "blessed to be a blessing" to others. Keep in mind that in all the examples I gave it is the office that carries the responsibility not merely the person. I would argue that any vocation is a calling and carries with it expectations and responsibilities that it can not ignore.
The point of view of a faith tradition is to espouse a "better way" because, we believe, it enhances life and relationships. I would argue from observation that while evils have often been done in the name of a faith, lack of faith has many of the same excesses and horrors attached to it as well. -
IMO it's nonsense to believe that come judgment day (if there is one) everybody will stand before God, be separated into religions or denominations, Catholics over there, Jews over there, Bhuddists over there, etc. Then God, probably accompanied by some kind of game show type music , will make his big reveal, "the .....Mormons were right" or whomever. "All the rest of you who were good people, I'm sorry you picked the wrong God, but thanks for playing, better luck next time." I would like to think that God's plan is a bit less cheesy.
Now even though I find that belief nonsense, I don't think anybody is doomed to eternal damnation b/c of it. And I never say that my belief is superior to theirs. I believe what I believe but I don't go around telling people that my God is greater than their God. (BTW this also includes not believing in any god). It's just that their belief doesn't work for me. If it works for them great and I'll defend their right to have that belief. But I won't defend their right to be intolerant of the beliefs of others.
I think that intolerance is why there have been so many evils done in the name of God. I agree with you that "faith" is a good thing a "better way" that enhances life and relationships. What I don't agree with is that your faith or Miamian's Faith or Pagan's faith or even my faith is the "best way" or the "only way" for everybody.muscle979, Pagan, emeraldfin and 1 other person like this. -
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
If you check my posts in the past I have come at this in a different way than you are suggesting. Let me try and summarize it here.
Implicit in any belief system is the understanding that the belief is "right" otherwise why hold it? Where I think folks make a mistake is saying "therefore another's is wrong". I try hard to avoid that pitfall though I do not always succeed. It is again a fine point but here, I believe, an essential one. I think both Miamian and Pagan from their different perspectives have stayed away from straying over that line in this forum pretty well.
If folks hold to their faith system even if it means public proclamation but refrain from condemnation then I think we are better off. That doesn't preclude someone from debating, proselytizing, or preaching; but it does keep me from proclaiming damnation (which I understand to be God's job not mine anyway).
I too get seriously bent out of shape when folks tell me that I have the wrong i dotted or the wrong t crossed. That is especially true when folks contend that since my understanding of the Christian faith is different than there's that I am wrong. It has happened a couple of times in this forum and I have occasionally "cooked off". It pushes all my buttons!
On a related note, I would ask you to look at your first sentence which I have bolded. If you are contending that all faiths have a similar moral code, then I would generally agree with you. But if you are saying all faiths have a similar understanding of how one interacts with their god or why one approaches a certain moral position, then I would disagree with you from an academic point of view. For example, Christianity would talk about good works as a response to God's love while for Islam, acts of charity are required and earn righteousness. Not to argue one is better than the other (I have made my choice for many and varied reasons) but they are, it would seem, fundamentally different.
It may be though that the similarity of maral codes helps address what the research in the original article of this thread was picking up on, I don't know?
Does that help explain my point of view?rafael likes this. -
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My beliefs work for me, that is why I hold them. I am open to them being completely wrong and not working for me a week from now and having completely different beliefs. If my beliefs can change, how can they be "right"? Would that not mean that my beliefs were "wrong" a few years ago or "wrong" in the future? -
The first part I bolded is about being "right". Like Dupree, I can't say my beliefs are "right". I had a crisis of faith about 6 or 7 years ago related to my belief in Jesus Christ as the savior. I had been studying his life and I started doubting many of the accounts I had been taught earlier. Without going into too many specifics, I found it plausible that he in fact hadn't been a savior and that the alleged statements and acts by him were fictitious and created after the fact. The conclusion I eventually came to is that it doesn't matter if he is or isn't the savior. All that mattered was that I still believed in the core of his teachings. So I am comfortable with the fact that I may or may not be "right".
The second part I bolded refers to the equality of faiths. I'm not saying they are equal in how they interact with their god or the academics of the "why" in their faith. I'm saying that they have equal value. I have caveats on that mainly around hurting others. But if your beliefs don't hurt others than I feel they have as much value as my own.
As for proselytizing, I think it crosses the line into saying "you are wrong". As does the idea that one group is "saved" or "chosen" b/c of which god they believe in b/c you can't be "saved" or "chosen" unless there are others who aren't "saved or "chosen". Once you divide the groups that way I think it's impossible to not believe one is "better" than the other. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
That would not be the way I define beliefs, for me that would be (and this is rendered without any perjorative value) as a system of rationalizations or justifications. If you submit to no external authority they would not for me, be beliefs.
Please I do not intend to sound negative and apologize if I do. For me, when I use the phrases beliefs or faith practices, they are answerable to a higher, external authority. I think here we are using the same language but meaning substantially different things.
Since you don't believe Jesus is a "savior" then I assume you have no belief in any life beyond this one? Or have you created a structure of your own devising?
I find beliefs that do not have a fixed, external, community filtered structure to be unsatisfing so they don't work for me.
I am glad you are happy in your beliefs or whatever we could agree to call them. I would disagree with them but defend your right to hold them.
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Even with you being answerable to a higher and external authority, your beliefs are still interpreted and acted out by you.
From what little I know of you, I am assuming that your relationship to your God is one that has matured. If you were to have a conversation with yourself 10 years ago about your relationship to your God, would you and 10 year younger you have exactly the same thoughts and belief structure, even with the fact that their is an external authority?
Would that make the you 10 years ago "wrong" if they were?
If you believe that your beliefs or faith practices are "right" then like me you have a system of rationalizations and justifications. With or without an external authority. The feeling of rightness is a rationalization and a justification by itself.Stitches likes this. -
As for the rest, I agree. It's about explaining not convincing or winning an argument.Ohiophinphan likes this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Keep in mind that I never said nor have I believed since puberty that it was my beliefs that "saved" me. I am not sure if that is one of your assumptions here or not?
Your arguments are well developed and perhaps we have gotten to a metaphyshical point that is as far as we can go.
The only point I was trying to make at the end was a distinction between a set of beliefs were are purely self generated and self policed versus a set which stands the test of community. I find the latter more fulfilling because it allows an external check on my reasoning. If you do not, so be it.
Best wishes! -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
I have lost both parents, one to cancer and the other to a stroke. And I lost my first wife also to cancer. Certainly through all that and more I have had my crisises of faith as well. They have honed my beliefs and brought others into focus.
Yes some of the details of belief have softened and the need for "accuracy" is greatly diminished in me. Also seeing some of the sites in Israel and hearing the locals talk about disputes over "Holy sites" which have raged since the time of Jesus have modified and diminished my need to explain everything.
I wish you well in your journey and am glad we had a chance to share.
Peace be with yourafael likes this. -
The idea that Jews are special is actually true, in a way, because as I stated above G-d's message to Moses was that the Jews are to be a nation of ministers. That's in the Bible. If you disagree, then your beef is with G-d. -
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And what I bolded there is my beef with many religions that hold there followers above others. IMO most of the world's ills can be attributed to one group deciding that they are more "special" than another group. -
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Best wishes to you as well! :)Ohiophinphan likes this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
There are many things about me which are undoubtedly different today than ten years ago though I would guess the way I believe and practice my beliefs were set somewhat earlier. Having lived through as much death around me as I have in the past ten years, one thing is for sure, I sweat the small stuff a whole lot less now than before and likewise I understand a whole lot more to BE small stuff!Miamian likes this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
I am of the opinion that insofar as Christianity is concerned, the creeds established at Nicea, etc., in my opinion led to the establishment of canon over a fifty year period in general practice and not as much by political pronoucment as modern hstorians would suggest. How else do you account for the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas not making the canon after Nicea had originally approved them?
Your conclusions have some merit to be sure, but I am not sure I would weight them as heavily as you are weighting them. It is ultimately unknowable after all, though a great subject for debate and PhD dissertations! -
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