Ryan Tannehill

"rafael wrote:

Rolling a QB out does reduce the field (although not as much with strong armed QBs), but it's not a question of sustainability.

Sustainability in terms of teams’ accruing film on that and defending against it progressively better over time.

"Vertical Limit wrote:

The coaching staff in Tennessee recognized his pocket issues and ive seen a lot more moving pockets in Tennessee than what Tannehill got under Gase and Philbin. And we all know he can complete passes on the run.

The movement outside of the pocket is due to the fact that the Titans pass-pro has been cheeks all year

"Vertical Limit wrote:

The coaching staff in Tennessee recognized his pocket issues and ive seen a lot more moving pockets in Tennessee than what Tannehill got under Gase and Philbin. And we all know he can complete passes on the run.

Whoa Whoa Whoa...are you telling me Adam Gase is incompetent???!!

"resnor wrote:

I was just saying that I don't think at the level of NFL QBs that balls being a little under inflated or over inflated makes much difference for them. They may prefer them a certain way, but they are certainly capable of throwing it well either way.

I agree with your sentiments on cheating.

I would say out of all the ways they have cheated it's probably the least malicious.

"resnor wrote:

I think it's embarrassing to compare a known cheater to a guy who, by all accounts, played the game the right way.

Didnt manning use HGH? Or was that his wife?

"Cashvillesent wrote:

Didnt manning use HGH? Or was that his wife?

His wife I believe. However, even IF he did use that, would you not agree that it's much different to use that to recover from a crazy injury than to just cheat because you like to cheat?

"PhinFan1968 wrote:

Ya...except one is based on proof, and those not blinded by the bling can see it.

No rational person continued the Brady vs Manning debate after SB51. You can maybe try to argue Montana if you're still stuck in 1990 or something and someone might humor you.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

No rational person continued the Brady vs Manning debate after SB51. You can maybe try to argue Montana if you're still stuck in 1990 or something and someone might humor you.

Montana was very good in that system, but I’d take Dan Marino over him 10x outta 10 if I were starting a team from scratch. Certainly goes for Brady also.

However based on the results? Tom is likely the GOAT.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

Debateable? Not. Even. Close.

Yeah the Pats made the playoffs with Matt Cassel but that division wasnt as strong as I can remeber.

Peyton Manning has never carried a team to win the superbowl. In 2006, Colts defense in the playoff gave up 16.2pts/game which is better than 3 of the 4 playoff defense Brady had during his superbowl year. On offense, Manning threw 3tds to 7ints for the whole playoff (4games total). That Colts team won the superbowl in spite of Manning terrible performance with Manning almost costing them.

In 2015, Denver defense in the playoff gave up 14.6pts/game which is better than all 4 of Brady's playoff defense that won the superbowl. Manning on offense got 2 tds to 1ints for the whole playoff (3games total). Again Manning basically did nothing on offense to help that team in the playoff.

Here are some of Manning's playoff gems:

- lost to Jets, who didn't even make the Super Bowl, 41-0

- threw 4 interceptions in a 24-14 loss to the Patriots

- couldn't find the end zone in a 20-3 loss to the Patriots

- threw the sealing interception in the red zone in a Super Bowl loss to the Saints

- the Seahawks massacre

Manning isn't in the same conversation as Brady. Montana is in the conversation with Brady. Manning is in the conversation with Favre and Marino. Guys who were great in the regular season but sucked in the playoffs.

Ryan Clark who actually played and prepared against both of them numerous times said on First Take if he had a game to win he would go with Brady and its not even close or something you even think about. Clark thought preparing for Brady was much harder. Said something along the lines of Manning was basically a smart game manager who got his team into the right play but "didnt do alot". Clark said he was nervous playing against Brady and that he knew exactly what the Steelers were doing on nearly every play. Manning also had 5x the offensive talent that Brady did so thats why I think he put up better numbers. Brady did however have the better defense until Manning went to DEN which probably helped him get more SB and wins. People keep bringing up Bradys coach as if Manning didn't have a HOF coach in Dungy as well. What does it for me is Manning has a 3-5 TD/INT ratio and a 77.4 passer rating in 4 super bowls. Brady has a 13-4 TD/INT ratio and a 95.3 passer rating in 6 super bowls. Throughout his career Manning has always seemed to underperform when it was a big game compared to Tom who thrived when the pressure was on.

In terms of who each had on offense throughout their careers:

Edgerrin James- borderline HOF runningback, fastest & youngest player to 12,000 yards from scrimmage, 11th all time leading rusher

Marvin Harrison- 3rd all time career reception, 5th all time career receiving TD, 7th all time receiving yards (should be in the HOF)

Reggie Wayne- 7th all time reception leader , 8th all time receiving yards

Dallas Clark- Great TE for a short period of time but got killed by injuries

Demaryius Thomas- Stud at his peak

Eric Decker- Stud at his peak

Wes Welker for 1 great year then got hurt

Julius Thomas - Stud at his peak

Emmanuel Sanders- Good WR

Brady's weapons -

Moss (1 year, broke nearly ever record at the time)

Gronk (6 years)

Welker (6 years)

Edelman- Former QB turned WR

The Patriots defense in the playoff in 2001 gave up 15.7pts/game, 19pts/game in 2003, 17 pts/game in 2004, and 20.7 pts/game in 2015.

On offense during playoff, Brady threw 1td - 1int in 2001, 5tds - 2ints in 2003, 5tds - 0ints in 2004, and 10tds - 4ints in 2015. (3games total each year)

Honestly its embarrasing to compare a legend to a choker

The part you left out- five cheating scandals for Brady's team, a library of every team's playbooks, a memorization genuis in Ernie Adams and one of the best coaches of all-time in Belichek.

Manning had Manning and he played football against other teams. Brady had an evil wizard telling him what to expect every snap. You're crazy if you think that's been 100% Brady throughout the years...it was and always will be Ernie Adams and Belichek. That's why there's zero difference when any other QB starts in NE...they need an obedient game manager, nothing more.

"KeyFin wrote:

The part you left out- five cheating scandals for Brady's team, a library of every team's playbooks, a memorization genuis in Ernie Adams and one of the best coaches of all-time in Belichek.

Manning had Manning and he played football against other teams. Brady had an evil wizard telling him what to expect every snap. You're crazy if you think that's been 100% Brady throughout the years...it was and always will be Ernie Adams and Belichek. That's why there's zero difference when any other QB starts in NE...they need an obedient game manager, nothing more.

Lol @ Manning had Manning.

People are so fast to forget that he had Tony Dungy, followed by another good coach.

The hate is so obvious.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

Debateable? Not. Even. Close.

Yeah the Pats made the playoffs with Matt Cassel but that division wasnt as strong as I can remeber.

Peyton Manning has never carried a team to win the superbowl. In 2006, Colts defense in the playoff gave up 16.2pts/game which is better than 3 of the 4 playoff defense Brady had during his superbowl year. On offense, Manning threw 3tds to 7ints for the whole playoff (4games total). That Colts team won the superbowl in spite of Manning terrible performance with Manning almost costing them.

In 2015, Denver defense in the playoff gave up 14.6pts/game which is better than all 4 of Brady's playoff defense that won the superbowl. Manning on offense got 2 tds to 1ints for the whole playoff (3games total). Again Manning basically did nothing on offense to help that team in the playoff.

Here are some of Manning's playoff gems:

- lost to Jets, who didn't even make the Super Bowl, 41-0

- threw 4 interceptions in a 24-14 loss to the Patriots

- couldn't find the end zone in a 20-3 loss to the Patriots

- threw the sealing interception in the red zone in a Super Bowl loss to the Saints

- the Seahawks massacre

Manning isn't in the same conversation as Brady. Montana is in the conversation with Brady. Manning is in the conversation with Favre and Marino. Guys who were great in the regular season but sucked in the playoffs.

The Patriots defense in the playoff in 2001 gave up 15.7pts/game, 19pts/game in 2003, 17 pts/game in 2004, and 20.7 pts/game in 2015.

On offense during playoff, Brady threw 1td - 1int in 2001, 5tds - 2ints in 2003, 5tds - 0ints in 2004, and 10tds - 4ints in 2015. (3games total each year)

Honestly its embarrasing to compare a legend to a choker

When you look at ALL playoff games Peyton, Brady and Montana played instead of just select games you get a very different picture.

First of all, everything HAS to be adjusted by era, and let's just look at passer rating since that includes TD's and INT's. Adjusted to 2019 ratings where the league average is currently 90.9, the average rating for all Brady's playoff games is 98.12, for Peyton it's 95.75, and for Montana it's 113.57. So right off the bat we can see that Montana was WAY better on average than both Peyton and Brady in the postseason, and that Peyton and Brady aren't that different (on average).

The standard deviations are different though: Brady's is 24.63 while Peyton's is 35.21 and Montana's is 38.48. This tells you that Brady was by far the most consistent of the 3 (spread of ratings is smallest).

We can do statistical tests to see what the probabilities are that the ratings "come from the same QB", and the test I'll use called the t-test for unequal sample sizes takes not only differences in means and standard deviations into account but also differences in sample size.

Results:
The probability Peyton and Brady were "the same QB" in the postseason is 74.6%
The probability Peyton and Montana were "the same QB" in the postseason is 9.39%
The probability Brady and Montana were "the same QB" in the postseason is 5.65%

So as you see, looking at all playoff games paints a very different picture. It's Montana that's the great one in the playoffs. And Peyton and Brady do belong in the same conversation in the playoffs.

What I got out of this thread: The pro-Manning posters think Manning's receivers WRs had no skill (even though DT, Wayne and Harrison were all 1st round picks), Manning is the only reason they are what they are, but the same can't be said about Brady. Brady's receivers made Brady's stats with YAC and Brady had no impact on making anyone better (Wes Welker in Miami says hi). Some of the argumentsmade in this thread are a prime example of a contradiction.

"KeyFin wrote:

Manning had Manning and he played football against other teams.

you are also forgetting one person and that man's name is Tom Moore.

"Fin-O wrote:

Montana was very good in that system, but I’d take Dan Marino over him 10x outta 10 if I were starting a team from scratch. Certainly goes for Brady also.

However based on the results? Tom is likely the GOAT.

The Patriots were 5-11 in 2000 and had gotten embarrassed Week 1 at Cincy to open 2001 before Brady came in vs the Jets in Week 2 when Mo Lewis murdered Bledsoe. That 2001 team was not expected to do anything.

BB at that point had a similar HC record to Rex Ryan. The Pats were the joke that let Parcells get away, lost Curtis Martin for Robert Edwards, and desperately hired a failed Tuna disciple who had already run a star QB out of town (Kozar) and wasn't such a genius when he wasn't coaching Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson and Carl Banks.

A lot has changed since then...

"Cashvillesent wrote:

What I got out of this thread: The pro-Manning posters think Manning's receivers WRs had no skill (even though DT, Wayne and Harrison were all 1st round picks), Manning is the only reason they are what they are, but the same can't be said about Brady. Brady's receivers made Brady's stats with YAC and Brady had no impact on making anyone better (Wes Welker in Miami says hi). Some of the argumentsmade in this thread are a prime example of a contradiction.

What did Welker do different in NE than in Miami?

Answer: nothing. Just he got thrown twice as many balls. He still averaged about the same ypc as he did in Miami.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

The Patriots were 5-11 in 2000 and had gotten embarrassed Week 1 at Cincy to open 2001 before Brady came in vs the Jets in Week 2 when Mo Lewis murdered Bledsoe. That 2001 team was not expected to do anything.

BB at that point had a similar HC record to Rex Ryan. The Pats were the joke that let Parcells get away, lost Curtis Martin for Robert Edwards, and desperately hired a failed Tuna disciple who had already run a star QB out of town (Kozar) and wasn't such a genius when he wasn't coaching Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson and Carl Banks.

A lot has changed since then...

But your argument is that a not great HC, drafted a 6th round pick...and that 6th round pick defied the odds, and became the GOAT. Cheating had nothing to do with. Just magical Brady.

I mean, you could be right. Or it could be way more than Brady.

"resnor wrote:

What did Welker do different in NE than in Miami?

Answer: nothing. Just he got thrown twice as many balls. He still averaged about the same ypc as he did in Miami.

On a different note, was Joe Montana a system QB since Steve Young came in after him and had similar success?

But to be fair, Montana had his best season in 1989 without Walsh, which was when the "system" criticism ended for him.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

On a different note, was Joe Montana a system QB since Steve Young came in after him and had similar success?

But to be fair, Montana had his best season in 1989 without Walsh, which was when the "system" criticism ended for him.

"Joe Montana was the product of a system. Dan Marino was the system."

- Bill Walsh

"Cashvillesent wrote:

Lol @ Manning had Manning.

People are so fast to forget that he had Tony Dungy, followed by another good coach.

The hate is so obvious.

I'm not sure having Tony Dungy is a major plus. Hes basically a super nice version of Jeff Fischer to me.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

What I got out of this thread: The pro-Manning posters think Manning's receivers WRs had no skill (even though DT, Wayne and Harrison were all 1st round picks), Manning is the only reason they are what they are, but the same can't be said about Brady. Brady's receivers made Brady's stats with YAC and Brady had no impact on making anyone better (Wes Welker in Miami says hi). Some of the argumentsmade in this thread are a prime example of a contradiction.

Manning: 7-time All-Pro, 5 MVPs
Brady: 3-time All-Pro, 3 MVPs

"Cashvillesent wrote:

On a different note, was Joe Montana a system QB since Steve Young came in after him and had similar success?

But to be fair, Montana had his best season in 1989 without Walsh, which was when the "system" criticism ended for him.

Steve Young might be the best QB to ever play the game...

Guarantee if other teams "cheated" they STILL would not have been a Dynasty for 20 fricken years. Lets all just agree that the Pats didnt really need to "cheat" to still own the league for 20 years.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

Guarantee if other teams "cheated" they STILL would not have been a Dynasty for 20 fricken years. Lets all just agree that the Pats didnt really need to "cheat" to still own the league for 20 years.

No way to know...but judging by the FACT that they kept doing it, over and over, even after getting caught, kinda speaks the other direction.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

Guarantee if other teams "cheated" they STILL would not have been a Dynasty for 20 fricken years. Lets all just agree that the Pats didnt really need to "cheat" to still own the league for 20 years.

There's literally no way of knowing that. If Brady had communication in his headset after the 15 second cutoff, as Flutie alleged, that would be a MASSIVE advantage. The fact is, everyone knows they cheated. Some people want to stick their heads in the sand and act like it didn't help. They use all their wins to justify that position...but that assumed that the cheating didn't help them win

"resnor wrote:

Steve Young might be the best QB to ever play the game...

For my money the only real competitor to Steve Young is Otto Graham, but he did his stuff in an era of a smaller league and fewer playoff games.