Marshall needs a good #2 playing opposite him who can make plays downfield and draw some coverage, and Henne doesn't cost us much money, so I'd be all for it.

 

The Vikings will do their best to outbid everyone.

Rice would be a good fit here opposite Marshall, but honestly I’d rather try to sign Santonio Holmes first. Help ourselves while harming a division rival.

 

This.... Holmes was arguably the MVP of that team IMO. You take him off the roster and they have at least 4 more losses. He's a game breaker.....game changer

We should be bidding hard against the Jets for him....if nothing else it will drive up the price the Jets have to pay to keep him.

 

Too injury prone to be paid a kings ransom. Vikes know what they are doing. I think in 4 seasons, Rice has completed one full season and then had major hip surgery last summer. Not worth the risk.

 

First off, no way the Vikings let Sidney Rice go to FA. Second, if he does make the FA market we would be FOOLS not to sign him immediately. Sidney Rice is the best offensive player besides Adrian Peterson on that team. Dude is a stud.

 

They already have. They used the franchise tag on Chad Greenway, and they can’t use the transition tag on Rice, not that it guarantees Rice won’t leave anyway.

He’s pretty good, but he has an extensive injury history including hip surgery six months ago. We already have one WR who had hip surgery. Not sure we need to double up on that, at least not without exhausting the Santonio Holmes avenue first.

 

Yep. Hell I want Homes and Brad Smith if possible. Smith can return and cover kicks, be a WC trigger man, and is a solid backup WR. And like you said, we can stick it to the Jests. If we sign those two, we can focus our entire draft on the running game and pass rush/secondary. Or maybe a QB, if you're into that sort of thing.

 

I doubt that Rice ever truly hits FA...with Harvin having all those migraine issues last season, the Vikes aren't letting Rice get away.

 

Hoping Hartline becomes a legitimate deep threat as a flanker is also not worth the risk. Ideally, we want a guy who can draw double teams away from Marshall & Bess so that they can wreak havoc in the short-intermediate areas. Rice would fit that bill, as would Holmes or V Jackson. We're only paying our QB 500K so there's no real excuse for having 3 UDFA WRs. This aint Cincinnati, gotta spend money somewhere if you want to compete w/ the Jets and Pats. At the very least, we need a guy who can consistently make plays vs single coverage, and preferably a guy who can blow the top of of coverage 3-4 times a game.

If we dont go with a big time WR like Rice or Jackson, we can go with a guy like Sims-Walker, James Jones or Jacoby Jones, and augment that w/ a Marcedes Lewis. Man I'd love to be the OC that had Marshall, Sims Walker, Bess, Marcedes and Ingram/Ryan Williams on the field. Or Marshall, Sims-Walker, Marcedes, Fasano & Ingram/R Williams. Matchup problems galore. 3 guys (QB not included) that could legitimately hurt the defense on the field at the same time, when was the last time you could say that about a Miami Dolphins offense? Duper, Clayton & Moore? Warfield, Csonka & Morris? Some of the older heads will have to help me out b/c I've been watching for 20+ years and I have never seen it.

 

They don't really have a choice. If he wants to walk, he's gone.

 

I'ld like to see us try to get santana Moss from Washington. I think he would be a good fit here and come at a reasonable price.

I would not be upset if we got Rice instead but I preferr Moss

 

Uhhh...too late? There are not a whole hell of a lot of players in the league with a higher per catch average and more yardage than Hartline. I don't understand why people discount what he is done. Is it because he wasn't an expensive sexy name? Because he is a goofy looking white guy?

You are dramatically overrating the amount of true double coverage NFL receivers get, and finding someone who is going to draw it more than Marshall is going to be a very hard sell- it ain't gonna be Sidney Rice.

The fact that you are getting very cost effective play out of Davone Bess and Brian Hartline doesn't mean you need to throw money at the position. Both of those players are quite capable of being 1000 yard receivers with a good amount of touches, and demoting either of them would be a scandalous misuse of resources.

 

Why can't we just get a guy like Santana Moss? He can still run with the fastest corners, he's from Miami and went to :theu:

If not, maybe someone like Terrell Owens could work.

I just believe that wide receiver is one of our strongest positions as Brandon Marshall, Davone Bess and Brian Hartline would all start on any team... we're just a deep threat away from possessing one of the best corps in the league (Bess/Hartline's similar skill-sets prevent that currently).

Anyway, a guy like Sidney Rice is going to want top 5 receiver money. While we can afford that, allocating that type of money to a position where Troy Williamson or Donte' Stallworth would suffice is overkill and unnecessary.

 

I don't care how much he costs or how sexy he is, or what is YPC avg is for that matter. I care that he is slow, NFL slow. As in not fast enough to consistently run by NFL corners. He also lacks the ability to consistently turn short gains into long gains. Jordy Nelson is white, and he runs by people, and he doesn't need a double move, hellacious play fake, or flea flicker to help him do it. We need a guy like that to lift coverage off of Marshall and Bess.

Sure, there are lots of ways to "double" a guy that aren't a true double team. Marshall was "doubled" all year out of Cover 2 looks b/c we had no one anchoring the CBs in the flats. Hell, he was essentially triple teamed in many cases. A corner in his face at the line, a safety over the top, and a LB in the slant zone to take that away. It's not a "triple" or even a double by definition, but it functions as one, and it makes getting Marshall the ball very difficult. Having another guy on the other side who can command the same kind of attention makes it impossible for teams to focus on either as much as they'd like to. Hartline doesn't do that. He was an afterthought all year long in opposing teams coverage looks.

Adding Mike Sims Walker, or Braylon Edwards, or Holmes, Rice, V Jax would be scandalous? I beg to differ. What is scandalous is our 31st ranked scoring offense and lack of any true deep/big play threat. Ireland is on record saying we need to add speed and play makers to the offense. That's kinda like saying a Siberian needs a winter coat. Daboll mentioned Bess and Marshall as the pieces he wants to work around, another obvious statement, as they are the only guys on our offense that require any game planning whatsoever. If you're going to add speed to the WR corps, sexy name or not, Hartline is the odd guy out of the rotation.

 

Short answer is NO.

 

The Dolphins need in the receiving corp, you don't need to buy for $10 million a year.

The Dolphins need an athleticism makeover on the offensive line and at running back, plus they need to add a second tight end and a quarterback. So why are we talking about spending the bulk of our resources on another #1 WR? It's not like that worked out soooo well for us this year, acquiring Marshall. Offense was even worse with Marshall than it was before him.

Get your quarterback, spend resources making over the offensive line into a more athletic unit, get some tailbacks that can make people miss and create big plays. Oh, and spend SOMETHING on a 2nd tight end, not a Zach Miller or someone expensive like that, but stop trying to get away with waiver wire turds like Mickey Shuler and Jeron Mastrud.

 

Mickey Shuler is good, dude

 

Good at what, bagging groceries?

 

Whats the point of getting more WRs until you have a QB thats proven he can hit them when they're open?

How grossly out of proportion would the team's salary structure be if we had two of the top-5 highest paid WRs in the NFL?

 

Isn't this him?

[video=youtube;BBgghnQF6E4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgghnQF6E4[/video]

 

Just curious what your main contention is with our offensive line. I would like to see us pick up a better center but overall I think many of thier struggles came from injuries, Henne holding the ball too long, and a lack of a running game by both Ricky and Ronnie. I do not really think our WR reciever corp or our line is the source of our offensive struggles. Even our TE postion is servicable. We need to work on our backfield, QB and RB are our two biggest needs and really hold this team back from putting more points up, IMO.

 

I doubt we'll be going after Rice. But the WR is market is flooded this year, and we should be able to find a good WR, one that fits our skill set needs, at a very reasonable price. Bash Henne all you want, but we played last year with 3UDFA TEs, and 3 UDFA WRs, with Bess being the only one of the 6 that even belonged on an NFL roster. Add in no running game to speak of, Long & Carey hurt, Berger hurt, Jerry sick, Procter lasted one series. Marshall hurt, Hartline hurt, a Kevin friggin Curtis cameo, an over matched OC, and what was ANY QB supposed to do in that spot?

 

I disagree with your assessment of our talent last year. Marshall, Bess, Hartline, Fasano are a decent group. Not spectacular, but decent. I'm not opposed to bringing in another WR. But I wouldn't want to allocate many resources to that position right now.

Skill position players come and go, running games come and go. The QB is supposed to make them look good. Peyton Manning makes Jacob Hannie look good. He makes Blair White look good. Who was Sidney Rice before Brett Favre? Who was Deion Branch without Tom Brady? Has there been any WR in New Orleans that has been a disappointment? They can plug in almost anyone and they look good, because of the QB. You don't need WRs that demand double-teams regularly when your QB can draw double-teams anywhere with his eyes. You put Brian Hartline on Green Bay, and he's just another Jordy Nelson. Thats how today's NFL works.

 

I think the running game was stricken with issues of lack of athleticism and fresh legs. Ricky and Ronnie couldn't make people miss, and the offensive line couldn't help them by getting to the second level and getting some guys blocked for them. This would have helped the ground game to be able to take over games rather than just sort of plodding along at about 4 yards per carry as they did in most games. I agree that Chad Henne was a part of the problem, as was Dan Henning. I thought the pass protection was superb until Jake Long got hurt and then once that happened, the Rock of Gibraltar cracked a little bit on that front, but Tyler Thigpen helped nobody out during that game by constantly running away from the pocket and giving OLs bad angles to try and block. If you go to a more athletic unit I think you risk not being so automatic on our short yardage plays, but we'll be better off for it overall.

 

If you don't care what Hartline's YPC is, you are running with perception rather than what he has done. YPC is the actual, measureable statistic for what you are describing.

Not to mention the fact that he draws quite a bit of pass interference calls against him. How do you suppose that happens? What causes that? Its not defensive holding or illegal contact like Marshall draws in the short area when he destroys a corner trying to jam him. He's got an average of 19.3 yards per penalty. How is he doing this?

Getting the ball to Brandon Marshall in practice was not at all difficult. He did not in any sense have too little targets, especially given the time he missed.

You are not going to find a wide receiver who is going to draw a lot of legitimate, high percentage of true double teams that are going have a safety in man coverage. Its sure as hell not Sidney Rice. That's a handful of players in the NFL at any given time.

Absolutely. Most of those players will demand too many targets taken away from Bess and Hartline, not to mention Marshall to use any of them properly. You get Braylon Edwards you are going to have to feed him 100 or so targets, and he's going to not bring down much more than 50% of them. You're going to take targets away from more reliable and more deserving younger players for what? Santonio Holmes? He produced very close to the same stats in the same snap counts as Hartline with the Jets. So you're going to replace Hartline with a guy much more expensive and on a verge of a one year suspension who doesn't do a whole lot more with what he is given? Vincent Jackson physically is not much different than Marshall, you're going to trade what draft pick for a franchised player who as a receiver uses his size and physicality to make deep plays when you could do that with what you have?

 

Hartline was horrible. He may have got a 19 yarder vs Minny, 28 vs Jets, 19vs GB, 24 vs Pitt, 24 vs Cinci, 34 vs Balt, 54 vs Tenn, 24 vs Bears,and 26 vs Oak. Then he got injured.

Pathetic SOB, cannot get chunks of yardage. "Off With His Head." LOL

 

If you're suggesting that we get a Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Brees, or Aaron Rodgers, please explain how we're supposed to do that. Otherwise we're stuck in reality w/ the QBs we have, or the unproven/journeyman type QBs that are typically available in the NFL.

As for Rice, the Vikings offense took a HUGE step backwards when Rice was out of the lineup. Tom Brady never put up big numbers until Moss got to NE. Brad Johnson, Culpepper & Cunningham also out up Pro Bowl numbers throwing to Moss. Brees has a great mix of speed (Bush, Henderson, Meachem) and possession guys (Colston, Shockey, Moore, Graham, Thomas) and a coach who knows how to use them effectively. So while I get your point, those are terrible examples. Don't try to dumb football down into just QB play, you're better than that.

Having "decent" players isn't enough. You need specific skill sets to have success. You need a philosophy, a system that fits the philosophy, and players that fit the system. Being able to attack every different coverage that you're going to see, having the plays and the players to do it. Having all possession WRs leaves you vulnerable, just as having zero possession WRs leaves you vulnerable. Same goes with slower bruising backs vs. speedier scat backs. Bess and Marshall are good possession wideouts, we need a speed guy to compliment them, that's way past obvious. Its not a knock on Hartline, he just doesn't have the skill set that is needed from the flanker position.

 

Wanna go by stats? Be my guest. I prefer watching the games. When I played the coaches never sat us down to go over stats, we sat for hours watching film. Its the only way to understand what's happening on the field IMO, but to each his own.

If you're suggesting that we maximized the production levels for Brandon Marshall, I find that funny.

Totally disagree.

You're right, having two really good WRs is a bad idea. Moss & Welker. Austin & Bryant. Jennings and Driver. Harrison and Wayne. Rice & Taylor. Moss & Carter. Duper & Clayton. Stallworth and Swann. Jerry Rice & Tim Brown. Jerry Rice & T.O.. Andre Reed & James Lofton. Art Monk & Gary Clark. Boldin & Fitzgerald. Ochocinco & Houshmanzadeh. Torry Holt & Isaac Bruce. What a scandalous waste of resources.

 

Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Daunte Culpepper, Dan Marino, Terry Bradshaw, Rich Gannon, Steve Young, Jim Kelly, Doug Williams, Kurt Warner, Carson Palmer, Kurt Warner again.

..........Chad Henne

Anyone who thinks receivers make quarterbacks is wrong. It's the other way around. Period. There is no room for debate, not because I'm close-minded, but because it's a FACT.

All of the quarterbacks preceding Chad Henne on that list are either Hall of Famers, Superbowl winners or multiple All-Pro selectees.

If you have a car without an engine, no matter how many paintjobs, spinners and window tint you dress it up with, it's not going to go.

You don't just add wide receivers and all of a sudden the offense opens up; didn't getting Marshall last year prove that?

Now, after me: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE QUARTERBACK

 

Amen to that...... all of it.

 

Thats why you pay an NFL GM. To figure that out.

 

Very few of those QB's put up gaudy numbers without the aforementioned WR's GM listed.

Certain QB's can make WR's better. Certain WR's can make QB's better. The QB that makes WR's better is a lot harder to come by. Unless you think the Marino's and Manning's are as common as the good to great WR.

 

You forgot about Mark Bulger, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Steve Bono, Matt Cassel, Randall Cunningham & more. Who was Rich Gannon before he had Rice & Brown? Who was Doug Williams, ever? Jon Kitna looked pretty decent out there throwing to Austin, Bryant, Witten & Williams this year didn't he? Reed, Lofton & Don Beebe were a part of the greatest playoff come back in NFL playoff history. Which was led by, Frank Reich. Jim Kelly lost four Super Bowls to guys like Hostetler, Rypien & Aikman. But at least he went to four. Marino only went to one, I bet he wishes it was "all about the Quarterback". This is football. It aint golf, or tennis, or ping pong. Regardless of what they tell you on ESPN, it cant be dumbed down into one on one matchups or the performance of any individual.

And your understanding of the difference between fact and opinion is very interesting.

 

Marinos and Mannings are not common, but then again, GREAT teams are not common, either.

From that list, four are active and performing at a high level (ergo no Carson Palmer). Then, take the great quarterbacks who don't have a "dynamic duo"; Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, and MAYBE Sam Bradford, and you have a quarter of the league that possesses, what I believe to be superbowl-capable signal callers.

Being that Tony Romo spent the season on the bench with a sling, he's not really a part of this discussion, so only Sam Bradford's (who I did not count for the 1/4 statistic) Rams did not make the playoffs.

The worst quarterback to even BE in the superbowl in the past 10 years was either Brad Johnson or Jake Delhomme, both of which had career years and were clearly better than Henne is now.

 

Of course its not just the QB. You need a great QB and a very good defense to make the Super Bowl now.

Brady, Manning, and Roethlisberger have represented the AFC in the Super Bowl how many times in the past 9 years?

 

The Dolphins should get Holmes and sign Plaxico on the cheap.

 

C'mon man. No one knows who's going to be a great QB and who's going to suck. Its more art than science, more luck than skill.

 

It would be to someone whose avatar is Chad Henne gracing the cover of Madden; a spot reserved for good football players :no:

All of the quarterbacks you began your rant with were great football players. I especially wanted to note Bulger, who I had a feeling you'd mention. Did you forget all of the injuries he endured? Could you remind me how Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt performed with Trent Green? Oh yeah, they both got cut. Warner made them and a healthy Bulger preserved them for a couple of years.

I could spend the rest of my day describing injuries and countless other variables that derailed the others, although I will put in my 2¢ on Cassel by suggesting that he is one of the leagues better quarterbacks, whether you like it or not. The thought of him teaming up with Josh McDaniels and Jim Zorn this year is scary. He will be a top 10 quarterback in '11-'12. Book it.

You can believe that the quarterback is not the most important position in football all you want; I can't stop you... but as far as truth goes, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning have my back on this one. Both have played games without Colston/Wayne and both have performed fine. Both have made stars out of UDFAs and no-namers. Both have higher salaries than anyone on our team. Both are working to get a new CBA. If either went down, neither team would win 8 games.

Name me one team in the NFL right now that doesn't have a GREAT quarterback that you honestly believe has a chance to win the superbowl next year.

Case in point.