Let's be honest here about Eggnog. He's playing this weekend. And quite possibly, he'll be playing a lot (~24 snaps). Given the role that Charles Clay plays in this offense, Eggnog is his backup, more so than he would be Anthony Fasano's backup.

I think in the back of our minds we're just wondering if the coaching staff will do something inexplicably stupid and for that I blame Legedu Naanee. He's the main reason in my mind we don't have the confidence that they won't do something that you just can't justify no matter how much you try and stretch the rationale.

I think over the next two games we'll find out a LITTLE bit about whether we can expect anything out of Eggnog in the future. But that doesn't necessarily diminish from Barry Jackson's point that the Dolphins may need to actually go out on a limb and invest something in this position this off season. I'm not sure if they will, but I would be tickled if they drafted Joseph Fauria.

I'm encouraged by Anthony Fasano's 5 TD catches plus a 2 point conversion catch. Not necessarily because it shows what a weapon he is but because it shows how important the tight end can be for both the passing offense as called by Mike Sherman, and for Ryan Tannehill. You add a PROVEN end zone nightmare like Joseph Fauria to that mix and I think you've got something.

 

I don't get the argument that the Dolphins haven't tried to invest in or address the TE position. They took Egnew is the same general area of the draft that Graham, Hernandez, Pitta and Cook were taken. It's been less than one season and is way too early to call that pick a bust. If he plays these next two games, we'll at least get a little sense of what we have in Egnew.

I just don't think the fact he hasn't been playing is a sign that he sucks. Over the years, we've seen too many guys that were criminally underused in their first year (or 3) here even though even fairly casual fans could tell that those guys could play. Cam Wake, Yeremiah Bell, Reshad Jones and Lamar Miller immediately come to mind.

 

As far as the Dolphins' investment in the tight end position is concerned they used a 4th round pick, a 5th round pick, a 6th round pick and a 3rd round pick over a period of 5 off seasons, without spending any money on free agents. That strikes me as the profile of a team that already has a top tight end. Since most would argue that they haven't, it strikes me as low.

 

I'm really curious about impending Raiders free agent Brandon Myers.

He's very much not the guy everyone has their heart set on. He's not going to destroy defensive backs on a skinny post. It's very much a clique'd comparison, but he looks to me like the Wes Welker of tight ends. He's very productive(#6 in the NFL with 743 yards), is sure-handed, clutch, and runs really good routes, and is good after the catch. I think he could be more productive down the field than he is, but he's very much a nimble, smart receiver in the middle of the field.

I think there's also fertile grounds for him in this offense. He's really ultra productive split out. The Raiders don't do it a lot(27.3%), but he's got 2.56 yards per route run in the slot, which is really freaking good. In the Dolphins offense he'd almost certainly end up there more often(mostly because he can't block for ****).

 

Its clear to me now, that Miami should just move all of their picks into the first two rounds every year, that way the "proper" emphasis can be given to each position of need picked relative to the draft.

 

Fasano's PFF rankings from 2008-2011 were as follows:

2008 -- 1
2009 -- 6
2010 -- 4
2011 -- 7

Under Sparano, the Dolphins placed a lot of emphasis on blocking from their TEs and Fasano has always been a good blocker. When thrown to he generally catches the call, including down the seam, and has made some great catches. So yes, I think they felt they had a top TE considering the type of TE they wanted.

 

Do you actually think they've had top 10 tight end production from 2008 to 2012?

Or are you just arguing it.

 

For what they were looking for from a TE from 2008-2011, I do think Fasano was one of the top 10 TEs for that role. They weren't looking for or planning to use a TE to catch 60+ passes per season. They were looking for a guy to be a blocker first in a run-based offense. There aren't many TEs better for that role.

 

The approach of taking a RG and De to convert to Lber (who was not a passrusher even in college) over Te's who score Td's that win games, is a fairly clear explanation why we are once again very mediocre on offense.

Miller and Egnew represent a new approach, their lack of production show otherwise.

I generally do not buy into "give them 3 yrs!" nonsense, this is a FA era Fineas, they will have improved enough to get a big payday after the franchise paid to develop their sorry asses for the prior 3 yrs.

 

I think Ireland and Sparano were probably more satisfied by Fasano as a #1 as they should be, but I don't think it was to an extent that was illogical or criminal. Fasano would never be a top receiving tight end, but he's good enough to reduce a sense of urgency at the position.

 

Again I ask, is this something you believe? That they had a top 10 tight end position during that time? Or are you just finding a way to argue it.

In 2008, Anthony Fasano and a healthy David Martin combined for 68 catches, 910 yards and 10 TDs. You're saying they looked at that production and decided it was too much, they would prefer less?

 

Fasano is a fine all around Te, but he is classic "Miami"

Doesn't do anything really well, is not bad, and is a pending FA and we have no one behind him to replace him.

 

I always thought they got that production because the team had to, not because they wanted to. Our oline was ok, Penny had a weak arm and Ginn was our #1. That screams a high TE production scenario to me. I don't think Sparano/Henning wanted that out of their TEs and I think they wanted it out of their WRs. So they bring in Marshall and let Martin walk. If that's not why, then the only other possible reason is that they just said, "who cares?" Do you really and truly think they did that? If you do think that then you believe we're talking Wannstadian levels of incompetence in personnel.

 

I believe that a GM should look for players that suit what the coaches want to do with them. If the TE isn't going to be a big factor in the passing game and is going to be asked to block most of the time, then don't spend a high pick on a receiving TE who doesn't block very well. Fasano is good for what they wanted him for. I'd prefer a more dynamic use of the TE, but my preferences don't mean much if the player won't be used that way.

IMO, how much the TE is used is as more a function of the offensive system and the QB's tendencies than it is a function of the TE's talent (in most cases). There was nothing special about David Martin, he was a decent player who had a nice year in 2008. I think they expected to have him back in 2009 but he got hurt in camp and went on IR. In 2010, they got Brandon Marshall and I think they anticipated going with more multiple WR sets and less 2 TE sets (which I think is what happened). In 2011, I think they tried to fill the receiving TE role with Charles Clay. I think Philbin/Marshall envisioned more of a receiving role from the TE position, so they drafted Egnew. Ironically, it seems that he has been unable to get active due in significant part to not being a good blocker.

 

Looks like Fasano isn't the problem on the team but other surrounding positions and a good back up for him is needed much more. Yes he has been a top TE over the last five years.


Edit: What would Gronk and Fasano on the field at the same time be like? They would be a nightmare to opposing teams.

 

Most forget GronK had a bad back coming out, Hernandez had mj issues etc

So as per usual, we went with the safe picks.

This is why missing on Graham burns a bit, there was nothing at all wrong with his game, they tried to go cheap and land him in the 4th rd.

 

We're prolly gonna wind up at around 13..

There will be some good defensive ends on the board..and there will be Tyler Eiffert, not getting Gronkowski, Graham, Allen is painful enough to live with, this dude is 6'6, 255, athletic, smart, excellent leaping ability, nice hands, and can make the great catch, oh, and he can block very well inside tight or on the perimeter ..most people now realize that Tannehill not being good in the middle of the field was'nt very good analysis, this dude can give him great radius and athleticism in that area for the next 10 years..Mackey award winner, all time receptions and yards leader for a tight end at Notre Dame..absolute red zone threat, with his size and leaping ability, can win the jump ball if you need it.

Need to see his flat out speed and explosiveness at the combine but I think this guy should be a serious option, may be able to trade down a bit as well.

JTT...Jennings..Tyler..Tavon...happy dolphin fans..Happy Qb.

 

I shared very good information that his back was not an issue going into the draft.

 

You're trying to peg the Dolphins coaches over a period of time into one hole but the fact of the matter is they made extensive use of their their tight ends in 2008 when they had two of them worth using, and then didn't use them in 2009 to 2010 when they no longer had a good option behind Fasano. And if you're going to argue that Joey Haynos, Jeron Mastrud, Mickey Shuler and Dedrick Epps were the equivalent of a healthy David Martin in 2008 then this conversation is over as there's no point.

Your argument requires evidence that the Dolphins coaches had an idea of how their tight ends were going to function in the offense and were going to use them the same whether Jeff Ireland provided them with better options or not. Unfortunately, the evidence points to the contrary. It points to an offensive staff that were willing to adapt to the talent available, and actually had much more success when they were able to use more tight ends in the passing game than they did when they weren't.

In 2008 the Dolphins averaged 1.5 tight ends running routes per pass play. In 2009 with David Martin gone and Joey Haynos in for him, that came down to 0.9 tight ends out on routes for every pass play. And in 2010 with not even a Joey Haynos here, relying on stud UDFA rookies like Mickey Shuler, Jeron Mastrud and Dedrick Epps to fill in behind Fasano, they averaged only 0.7 tight ends running routes per pass play. I would be willing to bet money that you will not find many contiguous offensive coaching staffs that have ranged from 1.5 tight ends per pass play to 0.7 tight ends per pass play from year to year. Just a guess, but I'd love if you did the research and proved me wrong on that.

As for 2011, they had a different offensive coordinator, and the use of the tight end in the passing game jumped back up from 0.7 to 1.1 tight ends. Whether that was because of the nature of the offense, or because they finally had a 2nd tight end worth using in the passing game, is a chicken-or-egg argument.

 

You are assuming that the reduced use of the TE was not something that was planned for and anticipated. We don't know that to be the case at all. If I had to guess, it probably wasn't in 2009. I suspect they planned to use Martin quite a bit in 2009 the same way they did in 2008. But Martin was hurt and put on IR right before the season started. The pool of dominant TEs who are available at that point is pretty shallow. They tried to fill it with the likes of Kory Sperry, but there just aren't great options at that point. I think the reduced use of the TE in 2010 was probably planned for. They brought in Brandon Marshall and made him the focal point of the passing game. Bess was established as a pretty effective slot receiver. Hartline was coming along after a nice second half of his rookie year and I think they planned to keep using him. And they liked to keep a back in the backfield on passing plays too. But you can't play 3 WRs, 2 TEs and a back in the backfield to help with pass protection and to be an outlet. So I think they felt a No. 2 TE was not a high priority.

 

Failing to address the TE position is one area that I do fault Ireland on. I don't buy into the complaints about the QB position since I don't believe there have been many good options. The best and most realistic option was probably Matt Ryan, but I had heard back before that draft that Ireland wanted Ryan, but that Parcells made the call for Long. After that, I didn't see many realistic options to address the QB position so I don't fault Ireland there. Even addressing the WR position has fewer mis-steps. IMO Hakeem Nicks was the obvious choice over Vontae Davis. I would classify that as the wrong call, but otherwise the miscues at WR weren't bad. I believe that trading for Marshall was a good gamble and depending on whether or not he really requested a trade, may still be here if there had not been a coaching change. There have been other WRs we could have drafted or acquired that would have been good choices, but at best they were all debatable at the time. Comparing that to even the most successful GMs, I don't see those as damnable decisions. But the TE misses are poor choices I attribute to a fundamental misevaluation of the value of the position and of the talent that was available. The TEs mentioned in the article all supremely talented and were bypassed for less impactful positions.

 

I wonder what Philbin and Sherman requested before the draft when it came to acquiring a tight end..Ireland produced eggnog, I wonder how they think the eggnog was...Publix..or one with high fructose corn syrup.

 

What great FA TEs have we missed out on?

World-beater Zach Miller?

 

****in A

 

The answer to this question is so obvious, I'm going to assume you already know it.

 

Martellus Bennett, Jacob Tamme, Tony Scheffler? :confused2:

 

I like the prospect of bringing in Martellus Bennett this year as much as anyone, but I can see why they would be hesitant doing it last season.

If that's what you're referring to.

 

Fasano is on par w Tamme and def Scheffler, imo.

 

A) There have actually been attractive free agent/veteran options that would have helped us

B) I'm not sure why my point about the overall resource allocation toward tight ends, both draft pick and free agent spending, has suddenly been pigeon holed into just free agent spending. Barry Jackson just spend an entire article outlining options that were fully available to the Dolphins during this time period, options they passed on.

 

Bc most of the really successful TEs seem to be drafted and not signed from other teams.

 

And somehow I did not cover that when I noted that the Dolphins only spent a 4th, 5th, 6th and 3rd over the course of five off seasons, despite having made no free agent acquisitions?

Ok.

 

lol Is that what I said? I only said that we haven't missed on many great options at TE in FA bc there haven't been many.

 

I agree that we have undervalued the TE position (or so it seems) judging by the efforts and resources expended to bring in talented ones.

I also agree that we need an upgrade there to put more tooth into this offense.

But I wouldn't be happy if we took Tyler Eifert at 13th overall. No way, man. No tight end, save Tony Gonzalez or Shannon Sharpe, should be going that high.

The draft for tight ends starts in round two. Maybe late round one. Not at #13.

 

Because that's what the post you replied to specifically was talking about.

We've missed plenty of great TE prospects between trading and drafts, I don't think there's a single person who would argue otherwise. I couldn't think of who we missed that was so obvious (as you had said) that was available in FA though, so I named the top 3 I could think of that changed teams via FA in an effort to find out who you meant.

 

What post? Show it to me. Because I'm looking up at the top of the thread and the post of mine in question that slickj quoted looks like a stand alone post where I didn't quote anyone. In fact I started out pretty clearly in the first sentence of the post. Perhaps you need to scroll up.

 

In Post# 24, slickj101 wrote:

He was clearly and explicitly asking about FA TEs.

In Post #26, you quoted it and wrote:

That logically prompted others to try to guess what "obvious" FA TEs you were referring to.

 

The post he quoted from me and responded to by asking about FA TEs clearly talked about draft picks AND free agents. THAT is why I said that the response to this is so obvious I assume you already know it. The actual response was not the name of a free agent, it was "I was talking about draft picks AND free agents and made that explicitly clear".

 

Ok, you were talking about draft picks and FA TEs.

So which FA TEs were you talking about?

 

Well, Greg Olsen was a pretty excellent pickup for the Panthers. Dallas Clark, while being underutilized, was always very productive, sure handed, and great at receiving. Chris Cooley, Kellen Winslow... I mean, it's not like there haven't been good pass catching TEs available. Are any of them better overall TEs than Fasano? Not really, but any of them(Provided they played to form from the season before) would have helped out our passing game immensely.

EDIT: Remembered Olsen was a trade. Still counts.