Taking a Closer Look at 2nd & 8 versus Buffalo

"maynard wrote:

Good insight. That makes sense to a degree

Should we assume that Sherman figures that since they are keeping in 7 blockers there is no need for the WRs to run a hot route or "just get open route?"

I really don't know why he didn't throw it to Clay and or/seemingly not look at him

It's really as simple as this: Hartline is the player he trusts most to get open in man coverage. Not Mike Wallace. Not Charles Clay. Brian Hartline.

It looks like the route Clay runs is right up the seam to where Tannehill has to float the ball into the hole between the linebacker and safety coverage. He could have chose that, but it is a more difficult/dangerous throw. Had Clay been continuing his route left to right then he'd have broken into a wide open space, but there would be no guarantee that there wouldn't be underneath coverage on that side reading the quarterback and dropping into it.

It was a trust factor and Brian Hartline is the guy he trusts in that situation to get open against man coverage without the safety getting into the play.

But the bottom line to me is you can only show a tendency so much before smart NFL defenders get a read on it. Perhaps a more instinctive play caller might have called a vertical concept for Hartline. Williams intentionally let himself trail Hartline by nearly two yards. By doing so he really does flirt with danger because what if Tannehill hits Brian in stride? Or worse, what if he hits the double move? Williams is taking a gamble, one he thinks he won't get burned for...but who knows? Williams may have underestimated Hartline's speed. That's happened before.

But when it came down to the crunch our offensive coordinator trusted a bread and butter concept that we'd run against that coverage several times during the game. And in the end we got burned because even though we were in max protect we couldn't give Tannehill time to hit ANY of the three targets.

Thomas pass blocking was wrong technically in every way. Balance, position, feet and stance. He's 233lbs. Does he bench press in the weight room? I think his mind set needs sorting out. No way should he got shoved back like that. His whole technique was wrong from the snap.

"Stitches wrote:

1. He determined Hartline would be open. Not sure he had time to look left then move to Clay, then move back to Hartline if Clay weren't open.

1a. Not sure he has a reason to even look elsewhere if he determined Hartline would be open.

2. Maybe he thought he didn't have time to move to Clay (or anyone else) and get a pass off even if he determined Hartline was not going to be open. If Hartline was covered, he may have just thrown it away (or ate it or whatever).

"ckparrothead wrote:

It's really as simple as this: Hartline is the player he trusts most to get open in man coverage. Not Mike Wallace. Not Charles Clay. Brian Hartline.

It looks like the route Clay runs is right up the seam to where Tannehill has to float the ball into the hole between the linebacker and safety coverage. He could have chose that, but it is a more difficult/dangerous throw. Had Clay been continuing his route left to right then he'd have broken into a wide open space, but there would be no guarantee that there wouldn't be underneath coverage on that side reading the quarterback and dropping into it.

It was a trust factor and Brian Hartline is the guy he trusts in that situation to get open against man coverage without the safety getting into the play.

I'll try to answer both here.

I suppose I'm lacking some understanding here. Seems to me that with 8 in the box, the pass you would most likely be checking into would involve some sort of a quicker look, not an intermediate comeback. I suppose you could use Clay's route there for that, but I think Clay would be your first look. Doesn't seem like he did. It is a dangerous throw because of the safety if you don't get it off quickly I agree. IMO, Clay should be the first read.

I buy the idea that he trusts Hartline and that may be more important than anything else.

I don't want to tear this play apart because of watching a gif in hindsight 20 times, but the predictability of the routes and what the QB is going to do kinda bothers me

Re: Taking a Closer Look at 2nd & 8 versus Buffalo

If we were looking to throw during that drive...why wouldnt we do more bunch formations and stacking of the recievers?
Could the lack of a time out to use..also be a large factor here, limiting us to running plays we run alot, rather then being able to have the time to set something else up?

CK..Could it be that having Sherman as his OC the first year was really good..but...its also possible isnt it..that both get to set in tendencies and being forced to think outside the box never happpens?
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"maynard wrote:

I'll try to answer both here.

I suppose I'm lacking some understanding here. Seems to me that with 8 in the box, the pass you would most likely be checking into would involve some sort of a quicker look, not an intermediate comeback. I suppose you could use Clay's route there for that, but I think Clay would be your first look. Doesn't seem like he did. It is a dangerous throw because of the safety if you don't get it off quickly I agree. IMO, Clay should be the first read.

I buy the idea that he trusts Hartline and that may be more important than anything else.

I don't want to tear this play apart because of watching a gif in hindsight 20 times, but the predictability of the routes and what the QB is going to do kinda bothers me

Well first off, Clay may very well have been the first read. Or actually the safety was likely the first thing Tannehill read on the play. You will notice on the Daniel Thomas GIF that Tannehill was looking straight ahead before he clicked to Hartline on the left.

You've really got to remember something though. You're talking about a pass over the short middle where Kiko Alonso lives and eats. And in fact, Alonso on that play is buzzing RIGHT INTO the passing lane Tannehill would be throwing if he hit the quick seam route to Clay.

Clay might have been the first read but that doesn't mean he was the final choice. The choice here if everything went how Tannehill thought it was going to go (which it did) was to progress through and throw to his favorite receiver in single coverage on a route he's gotten open on hundreds of times.

You mention that with 8 in the box you would think a quicker pass would be the first option. That depends on where the quickest route is going to get open. In this case it's the short middle which is cluttered full of bodies because there were 8 in the box. So maybe that's not such a good idea after all.

"vt_dolfan wrote:

If we were looking to throw during that drive...why wouldnt we do more bunch formations and stacking of the recievers?
Could the lack of a time out to use..also be a large factor here, limiting us to running plays we run alot, rather then being able to have the time to set something else up?

CK..Could it be that having Sherman as his OC the first year was really good..but...its also possible isnt it..that both get to set in tendencies and being forced to think outside the box never happpens?
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I don't know if they're growing together.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I do not think it is cut and dry that Daniel Thomas would have gotten Tannehill hit.

I think he would've gotten hit, but I don't think it would've led to a fumble.

A sack would've been perfectly fine (clock runs, we can still run more clock, and punt to Thad Lewis). The fumble was the problem.

As Tannehill goes to throw, the ball is unprotected on the side Mario Williams came from. Tannehill needs to feel that pressure and simply fold up and protect the ball (and himself for that matter). Especially in that situation - small, late lead on a team running a makeshift offense with a backup QB. Ball security should be everyone's #1 priority at that stage in this particular game - no turnovers.

"Limbo wrote:

I think he would've gotten hit, but I don't think it would've led to a fumble.

A sack would've been perfectly fine (clock runs, we can still run more clock, and punt to Thad Lewis). The fumble was the problem.

As Tannehill goes to throw, the ball is unprotected on the side Mario Williams came from. Tannehill needs to feel that pressure and simply fold up and protect the ball (and himself for that matter). Especially in that situation - small, late lead on a team running a makeshift offense with a backup QB. Ball security should be everyone's #1 priority at that stage in this particular game - no turnovers.

That's asking a lot considering the read-progression on the route. Clabo became Tannehill's blind side and it would have been impossible to feel the pressure from Mario Williams after Tannehill clicked off the safety read and onto Brian Hartline.

"maynard wrote:

I'll try to answer both here.

I suppose I'm lacking some understanding here. Seems to me that with 8 in the box, the pass you would most likely be checking into would involve some sort of a quicker look, not an intermediate comeback. I suppose you could use Clay's route there for that, but I think Clay would be your first look. Doesn't seem like he did. It is a dangerous throw because of the safety if you don't get it off quickly I agree. IMO, Clay should be the first read.

I buy the idea that he trusts Hartline and that may be more important than anything else.

I don't want to tear this play apart because of watching a gif in hindsight 20 times, but the predictability of the routes and what the QB is going to do kinda bothers me

Facing 8 in the box i know you have to spread out the formation. Quick out routes beit flats, screens, 5yd routes or stop routes is prone to minimal yardage at best, at worst...we witnessed it. If a Defense throws 8 in the box then its countered by spreading the pass routes. Nobody will convince me with the weapons Tannehill has that Sherman is using the receiving Corp to its max efficiency. Hartline got over a 1000yds last season as our #1WR last season. By all intensive purposes with the signing of Wallace, Clay proving a weapon and Gibson being a 1st down machine then there is a problem with playcalling. Hartline has almost gone missing this season which isnt on #82.

"ckparrothead wrote:

That's asking a lot considering the read-progression on the route. Clabo became Tannehill's blind side and it would have been impossible to feel the pressure from Mario Williams after Tannehill clicked off the safety read and onto Brian Hartline.

Especially that quickly. When people say feel the pressure, it could be two things... peripheral vision - in which case he could and probably would have covered up the ball. Or two, an internal timer to say time to go and look around ... There was NO time for this, at least IMO.

you wouldnt know Hartline got over 1000yds last season as the #1 WR. Now he's #2 he's basically gone missing for all intensive purposes. Criminal.

Re: Taking a Closer Look at 2nd & 8 versus Buffalo

"Limbo wrote:

I think he would've gotten hit, but I don't think it would've led to a fumble.

A sack would've been perfectly fine (clock runs, we can still run more clock, and punt to Thad Lewis). The fumble was the problem.

As Tannehill goes to throw, the ball is unprotected on the side Mario Williams came from. Tannehill needs to feel that pressure and simply fold up and protect the ball (and himself for that matter). Especially in that situation - small, late lead on a team running a makeshift offense with a backup QB. Ball security should be everyone's #1 priority at that stage in this particular game - no turnovers.

How in the hell is he supposed to feel that pressure. Its a five step drop..look where Williams is by the time Tannehill gets into his 5th step..

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"Limbo wrote:

I think he would've gotten hit, but I don't think it would've led to a fumble.

A sack would've been perfectly fine (clock runs, we can still run more clock, and punt to Thad Lewis). The fumble was the problem.

As Tannehill goes to throw, the ball is unprotected on the side Mario Williams came from. Tannehill needs to feel that pressure and simply fold up and protect the ball (and himself for that matter). Especially in that situation - small, late lead on a team running a makeshift offense with a backup QB. Ball security should be everyone's #1 priority at that stage in this particular game - no turnovers.

I just don't think there was that kind of time. Looking at that .gif over and over, by the time he hits the third step of his drop, Williams is there. Tannehill would have had to give up on the play mid-drop, and no quarterback is that aware. Williams is keeping up with Tannehill's drop and closing the gap on him in the one second after the ball is snapped; Clabo hardly even seems a factor. He hits that last step of his drop and is cocking his arm back to throw. At that point if you sense the pressure, you tuck and fall. But as he's cocking his arm, before his mind could even react to say, "Oh crap, they're already here!", Williams is swinging his arm like a club. Our line and running back got absolutely blown up in less than a second and a half. If it was like that every play, we'd rarely complete a pass. On that play, if I'm going to fault Tannehill, I'm going to fault him for not going against the call and the defense presented to just hand the ball off because it's the percentage thing to do to win the football game. But that's way more of a coaching decision. Given the reads, Tannehill did the right thing but was a victim of circumstance. Yeah, he loses waaaaaay too many fumbles, and most of them are fumbles he can easily avoid with some ball security sense about himself. I'm just not so sure on this one.

On that play, the Bills were better than the Dolphins at every level... coaching, executing, field smarts, everything. And it cost us the game - hopefully not the season (by which I mean playoffs).

"FanMarino wrote:

you wouldnt know Hartline got over 1000yds last season as the #1 WR. Now he's #2 he's basically gone missing for all intensive purposes. Criminal.

Sorry, but this is just inaccurate. He is on pace for 1k yards, about 80 receptions and 5 TD's. I will take that all day.

That's just horrible pass protection. RTH certainly needs to clean things up but not many QB's can expect to succeed in that situation.

Speaking of Philbin getting more involved, he was a great OL coach at Iowa. Iowa also runs a zone block system and he helped develop an OL that had a top 5 pick, a 2nd round pick, a 3 round pick and 6 OL that got drafted.

Great write up. Thanks for sharing.

"77FinFan wrote:

Sorry, but this is just inaccurate. He is on pace for 1k yards, about 80 receptions and 5 TD's. I will take that all day.

2nded. I was going to say he's on pace for arguably a better season this year.

"RGF wrote:

Looking at that play from that angle Tannehill had room to move up in the pocket to extend the play feeling pressure from the outside. I realize that he only had a split second to react but its something he needs to improve on. Great write up,

I agree with this. Tannehill absolutely needs to improve on his pocket presence. Granted his O-line not giving him much time. But, he's not going to have a five second clean pocket every time he steps back to throw.

"The G Man wrote:

I agree with this. Tannehill absolutely needs to improve on his pocket presence. Granted his O-line not giving him much time. But, he's not going to have a five second clean pocket every time he steps back to throw.

So we're skipping 4 seconds? :shifty:

"77FinFan wrote:

Sorry, but this is just inaccurate. He is on pace for 1k yards, about 80 receptions and 5 TD's. I will take that all day.

Imagine if he was getting as many targets as Mike Wallace.

What Hartline says about the play is completely different to what Omar said happened:

Hartline said it was the right call.
"So it's second and eight," Hartline said, "and you're counting on a pass play and there's a check for a potential run when they go two high that's completely the right call. Absolutely. It makes sense every time.
"If you protect the quarterback, throw the football on time, get a first down, the game is over."

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-10-21/sports/fl-dolphins-notes-1022-20131021_1_kevin-coyle-dolphins-coaches-ryan-tannehill

Essentially it was a pass play called with an option to convert to a run if there were 2 high safeties. Since the Bills had 8 in the box, Tannehill ran the pass play as called. Omar said it was a run play checked to a pass. I think Omar was incorrect. I don't think Tannehill changed anything.

"Stringer Bell wrote:

Imagine if he was getting as many targets as Mike Wallace.

He only has 5 less targets.

"Ludacris wrote:

What Hartline says about the play is completely different to what Omar said happened:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-10-21/sports/fl-dolphins-notes-1022-20131021_1_kevin-coyle-dolphins-coaches-ryan-tannehill

Essentially it was a pass play called with an option to convert to a run if there were 2 high safeties. Since the Bills had 8 in the box, Tannehill ran the pass play as called. Omar said it was a run play checked to a pass. I think Omar was incorrect. I don't think Tannehill changed anything.

Tannehill stated himself that Sherman initially had a run called, but that he audibled to a pass as he has been coached to do so when the defense posed an 8 man front. If the pass blocking had been executed correctly, it would have been fine. As it was, you had Thomas being tossed at Tannehill from the left and Williams blowing up Clabo and getting the strip from the right.

"Anonymous wrote:

He only has 5 less targets.

Would have him jump 8 spots in total receiving yards. Could be the difference between a loss and a win in a couple of these losses.