The Steelers the last few weeks of the season were trying to get Logan on the field more in the base offense as a RB/WR, but they could not do it due to the close games.

But they wanted to and you will see next year he will be involved more in the offense.

Just was reading about this in my buddies Steelers Digest.

 

I personally don't like him as a returner.

I'll change that, I like when he is decisive, which more often he is not as a returner. When he gets the ball and takes off, he is fine, but he way to often does not even get to the 20. I know our blocking is suspect, but watch the difference in a Logan, he gets the ball and goes, he gets every possible yard.

I thinks Ginns biggest problem is his mental state, he was just so unsure of himself this year, you could see it.

I really feel bad for the guy, I think the best thing for him is to start new somewhere else, but who knows.

 

Thing is I don't even consider him a good kick returner, minus that 2nd TD against the Jets if there is not an immediate hole he goes down the first time he is touched.

 

It might make Ginn a better returner, but the fact he's making at least $1M per season the rest of his contract makes me think it wouldn't be worth it just to keep him on the 53 man roster solely as a returner and 4th WR option.

Here's a link to salaries: http://phins-spotlight.com/PlayerContracts.htm

Sparano's always talking about how many jobs you can do helps you become active on gamedays - in regards to keeping some like Patrick Turner inactive more often than not - and if you relegate Ginn to that role; well that's pretty expensive for a KR IMO.

 

You say consistent, but what was his average besides the Jet game?

I know he won that game, but just maybe that was an abnormality, and the other 15 games was the norm?

I don't know the answer, but my head was scratching more after his kick returns than I was jumping for joy.

The same goes for Bess on PR.

 

He had a big return against NE and two against CAR.

Also - Cobbs returned kicks till week 5-6? So it wasn't 15 games of norm. 4 games with a good return out of a possible 10-11. I'll take a 40 yard return every other week.

 

Parrish yea, Sproles - from what I saw, I'd rather have him than Ginn. It just discourages me that if we were to relegate the 9th overall pick in the draft from 3 years ago to solely a KR or KR and 4th WR option, isn't it just better to cut bait and save $ for now? Who knows what ramifications might befall teams when a CBA and Salary Cap is reinstituted? I'd rather get more for my money than Ginn gives me in that option.

Now, on the flip side, if you can add a WR via FA or the draft, for example, say we land Brandon Marshall or Dez Bryant, perhaps Ginn can really develop into a legitmate #2 WR option AND perform as a KR.

But for now, for my money if I were Jeff Ireland - who did say that Ginn needed to prove his worth in his 3rd year, or something to that effect prior to the season - I'm ready at this point to cut Ginn loose. There's a solid chance to land a WR in FA and/or the Draft, why not take it than pin our hopes to Ginn progressing? IMO, he would've done so by now.

 

And please everyone, this is a good discussion, lets keep the bashing out of it.

 

Agreed - it's a unique aspect about Ginn brought up by Padre.

 

I think I would be much more comfortable if we consistently started at 30-35 than the 15-20 and still get the big return every once in a while.

I mean next year who would you rather have returning kicks if he's healthy, Cobbs or Ginn?

 

[mod] Please, lets stay with facts and a good discussion [/mod]

 

Well he averaged 24.9 per KR counting the two big Jet returns.

Logan average 26.7 with no TD's

Maybe its just me, but I love the Welker types on returns (Kr or PR)

I think Hartline would be good at it.

 

The game with 2 TDs was absolutely an abnormality, and the rest closer to the norm.

Any time you get a TD in a game on a kick/punt return (unless your name is Josh Cribbs) it is not the norm.

The best returners (in any given season) historically don't usually get more than 3 returns for TDs (at least KRs), and a very small group beyond that gets two in any season. But that doesn't mean you should take away the abnormalities when evaluating a player's return ability, because it is the abnormalities that tend to separate returners from one another. Abnormalities are huge. If Ginn didn't have the ability to create abnormalities on returns, I wouldn't want him back there (that's one reason I don't like Bess at PR).

 

Another thing is 20+ yard returns

Logan had 43, Gin had 34.

I guy like Danny Amendola had 54, but had a worse overall average than both Logan and Ginn.

Would you take those 54 returns or a better average over 16 games?

 

Playing devil's advocate, but I'd rather get 3 Davone Besses for the same money that I'm paying Ted Ginn. Same goes for getting 3 Nate Joneses for the price I'm paying Jason Allen.

I think it's safe to say that both Saban and Mueller/Cameron missed, and missed badly, with their first rounders in '06 and '07. They aren't this regime's players - I say it's time to cut bait and move on.

 

hartline just might turn out to be a great option as a pr
good hands, good recognition of the coverage, scrappy

bess was the safe guy back there because of his hands from what i was seeing. we pretty much know he wasnt going to break a big one but most of the time he would hang onto it

ginn is risk reward as a pr really. we know he needs space to get his motor going and there isnt much time to do that. he said himself that he likes returning ko's as opposed to pr's for that reason

hartline may give you the best of both worlds in that sense
i would like to see him get some work in that area to see what he can do

 

Where is Dave Meggett??? I loved him!

I would like I said, love to see Hartline return at least punts!

 

Tough to say, I'd need to know what the average start positions were. I probably would also like to see how many 18-19 yd returns Ginn had vs how many of Danny's returns were just 20-22 yds.

It's kind of like YAC in that regard. Would you rather have a guy who gets 13 ypc that includes 1 yac/catch, or a guy who gets 12 ypc but including 3 yac/catch.

 

But he is not better at returning, you take away those two TD's against the Jets and his whole career as a kick returner is a failure and I also think total yards is a very misleading stat mostly because you can pad it with the free yards you get returning kicks. I mean as long as I catch the kick off I could return it ten yards before I would get killed and with Ginn and his speed he easily get 15 before meeting resistence and then usually he has a meek response to it.

So I think it's not really any kind of accomplishment to get 2,000 totals yards in the NFL. What they should do is on kick off returns only count the yards a returner gets once he gets past the first defender, now THAT would be a meaningful stat.

And Ginn does? Sorry Pads but you are overrating Ginn's return ability a tad much. And Cobbs is not that slow, he has his share of big plays on special teams and offense.

 

Don't remember that many, or him losing all that he did fumble, but in any case, give me 3 Hartline's then instead of 1 Ginn. My point is, I don't believe it's fiscally sound to keep paying Ginn and getting minimal results as WR which is, after all, what he his. I'd pay that to Brandon Marshall or Antonio Bryant and know that I've still got enough to lock up Bess, Jones, Anthony Fasano, and a few others long-term than have Ginn stick around. Just my two cents.

 

cobbs had a 90 yard ko return in kc in 08 so i guess they saw some potential there

marc logan was pretty slow back in the day but shula trusted him enough and it paid off here and there. not that it matters

good to see you back padre :up:

 

Though it's silly to ignore big play ability as a returner here are some nice nuggets:

Ignoring Cobbs returns in 2007, and taking away his long return in 2008 and 2009 (60 and 39) his career avg is 20.5 ypr.

Ignoring Ginn's longest career returns (100 and 101 yds this year), his career average is still 22 ypr.

So yea, Ginn is still better.

 

I'm sure a lot of people don't realize that Ginn led the league in yards per touch. I didn't know it until I happened to run across it looking for some other stat. The reason is largely because of his high yards per return on kick returns because he only averaged 11.9 yards per catch. Regardless of his receiving abilities he has value as a kick returner. I'd bet he is a better punt returner than Bess. He just needs to not make mistakes in the few opportunities he is giving in order to prove that.

 

yeah i said cobbs return in kc was 90 yards
it was a 60 yarder to the kc 30
thanks stitches

 

And he has done that in one game out of 48 in his career, how much of a threat does that really make him? And if anything Ginn this year was a clog, not a cog of our offense.

I think if it was a meaningful stat I would have an easier time finding who they were.

According to this he had two returns against the Bills for more than 30 yards and neither them were reverses.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=291004015&period=0

Either way I rather have Cobbs taking it hard to the other team and giving it to them just as hard as they are giving it to him instead of going so easily and not set a strong tone and most of the time handing it to them.

My main point being at least Cobbs is getting hammered and giving his body for the team, Ginn will NEVER do this and to me it's something you don't want your own teammates have to put up with.

 

comparing his stats this season to the stats of his VERY mediocre rookie season is a clear statement to me that he needs to go.

 

If you soley live by numbers yeah, but I don't, I am tired of watching him laid down like a dog everytime the hole gets small, I rather have a guy take it to the hole with an attitude than watch any Dolphin player be as passive as Ginn is when returning kicks. The hell with 1.5 yrds.

Seriously, am I the only one who is bothered by this?

By the way if you take Ginn's last two years minus those two TD's against the Jets his average is 20.5 as well and that is the Ginn we are seeing.

 

So you want Cobbs at returner instead of Ginn because he runs harder, not because he's actually better at kick returning. At least that makes more sense.

 

Actually 21.4. Again, still better than Cobbs.

 

It is, but Ted Ginn's not getting paid to outperform Patrick Cobbs on kick returns. He's getting paid the salary of a 9th overall pick to play WR, which I think we saw this year was done better by Davone Bess, Greg Camarillo, and Brian Hartline.