So, having not seen the episode, it seems as if Jeff Ireland will have to look for a new kind of "makeup" in the players he acquires?

 

That's what should happen. The GM wants to find players that fit the coach's system. Whenever the coach changes the GM has to change with it. That's why I don't agree that Ireland is fixing his own mess. IMO he is changing what he's looking for to fit what the coach wants.

Personally, I disagree with Philbin here. IMO Gates shows signs of being a football player.

 

I think until Philbin and Ireland get on the same page this team will struggle to find the right formula to win. And they most definitely are not there yet.

 

IMO I dont think there are enough of the "Philbin" players here yet. And a lot of purging of "Ireland" players. That is just my observation. From the purging part I guess you are right. At least Ireland is attempting to purge his guys to get Philbin's guys.

 

I don't think there's any doubt that Philbin will be involved in the draft process.

 

I think the point needed to be made Doc, it was apparent that Jeff was hesitant to let his pick go ( he knows how it will affect his record), Philbin said what I think is true, and Jeff followed suit..

Dude is too small, and to non instinctive..

"is Clyde gates for real, he may wanna run a few routed and catch a few balls, he is a neophyte as a wide receiver""


Philbin clearly checked Ireland in that meeting room on gates..

There's a new sheriff in town, and his name is Reggie Philbin.

Happy we kept Moore, and cut Garrard...keep developing Devlin..Devlin needs to spend some time in the weight room.

Javorski " get the fu&$ out of my lane"... Happy about him being a phin.l

Kheeston Randall must of really played well for old boy to get released and picked up by jets..Really like that dudes character..heard he was cut by the jets for the punter? Bring that dude back and PS him.

Philbin is battling a uphill battle, that last segment with Chad should piss off even more the already pissed off players.

Fu&$ 'me, they havendine one sh&$ as a team over a three year period, either get it line, or let me get a pick for your ***.

 

Philbin actually said Gates is a "neophyte as a route runner" and that is why he is not here I suspect.

 

I realize this is not a real inquiry, but a football player is someone who is high effort/blue collar/might not fit standard prototypes instead of someone who is on the roster for raw talent.

 

Reminds me of how the Raiders were drafting speed anything for speed. That didn't pan out very well.

 

Well I hate to give Shou a hard time on this, but I don't think this is any kind of surprise. I think he's been looking 'differently' at players since Philbin came on board. Parcells/Sparano were looking for a certain type of player and that's not the same type of player that Philbin looks for. Neither is wrong and frankly, how can Irish expect to be successful with Philbin if he doesn't change his tactics?? How can Philbin be successful with players that don't fit his MO?? I think we can all say we've seen a big difference in the style and type of player that Ireland is bringing in compared to prior seasons...

If I have been any of the fringe players (like Gates), I would have been very nervous about my status with Philbin...

 

I agree on your assessment of what happened - but I didn't think it was necessarily a good thing. 'Football players' are great - but strong fundamentals and smart play don't always win games. Sometimes guys with 4.37 speed win games. I hope they find a balance between guys Philbin likes to coach and guys that have an elite skill as identified by Ireland.

Not that I think Ireland is great - but in this instance, I agreed that Gates' elite speed was worth the time it would take to polish him off as a player.

 

I like the football players -vs- the measurables guys also. You can't measure heart. Look at guys like Bess and Welker. Two great WR's that don't "measure" up. Having one guy like that on your team will inspire other guys to do better.

 

The coaches watching that tape of Gates was hilarious. "Did he just triple strutter?"

 

Randy Moss has a lot of heart. He can be lazy, but he fits the "football player" mold. He has football skills. Gates really only has speed.

 

Yea I agree with Stringer. Randy Moss had heart and is/was a football player.

I think to add to what was previously said about what a football player is, is mentality. Wanting contact, wanting to dominate. Having the mentality that your the best and playing with that swag and attitude.

There are plenty of 4.3 guys in the NFL, so you need something to separate yourself. Gates didn't do that.

 

I agree with all of your post except the part about Gates. Great post.

 

I would think that it is different for every staff. A team's view of what a ballplayer is will likely draw from philosophy and makeup and attribute directly to success or failure. If everyone had the same view of what a ballplayer was, I would imagine the teams would all be built the same way. I don't think its mumbo jumbo at all.

 

Sorry, its officially "Butterball" now....do not overrule our coach and his appointed nickname.:tongue2:

 

I agree with you on character, but I don't think it's so much about that as it is not being overly discriminatory in terms of physical talent.

Ireland followed pretty firmly Bill Parcells prototypes for players, but he's made statements that he's moved away from that. They are well-reasoned, time-tested guidelines on physical build, experience, etc., but there are a significant number of guys who fall outside of that range that are still successful. Being more concerned about "football players" over pure physical talent lets you find guys like Zach Thomas as an extreme example, who made up for mediocre physical capability with amazing instincts and work-ethic.

 

I think they're on the same page but you've gotta give them more time than one offseason.

 

My feeling is the opposite. That near catch in the last preseason game is a good example. He landed just out of bounds, but during that play he showed the body control to elevate above a DB, track the ball and complete the catch all while taking contact. That's the kind of thing that a football player does and it's what Ginn never showed. The one thing Ginn did better, after three years in the league, was route running. Gates hasn't developed that yet. But IMO that's a teachable skill. The other stuff he showed on the play is the stuff you can't teach (along with his speed).

 

I think Philbin's definition of "football player" in that context is more like a tough guy. I say that because he was pointing out how Gates likes to be pretty on the practice field instead of knocking someone's dick in the dirt and getting the job done. That was my take anyway.

 

That's part of it, but I also think his definition includes an element of professionalism. My guess is he saw Gates' raw route running and concluded that Gates isn't serious enough about his craft. That's why I think Matthews made the team. His route running showed the nuances that you only tend to get with a ton of practice.

 

He can do that, I've seen it several times, problem is Rafs, he can't run routes and he doesn't have any sort of physicality to his game..he's 26 already, and he's got some immaturity in him..

When Philbin was cracking on him by saying why don't you at least run some routes and catch some passes, he said it like that because the guys game does not reflect his persona.

 

I guess I disagree that he lacks any physicality. Coming down with the pass while taking contact is what I would consider physicality. But I do agree that he has other issues. And at his age you do hope to see more maturity. I was focusing on him as a second year player rather than as a 26 year old.

 

On the other hand, the odds of on hitting on a player is 0 if you categorically refuse to make the attempt in those situations.

 

That sounds like a Vernon Gholston Vs. Zach Thomas philosophy. I'll pick the football player over the physical freak of nature everytime.

If you have a combo of both football player and physical freak of nature such as Patrick Willis well....... that's what first round picks are all about.

 

Which is why, IMO, it's dumb to have strict "philosophy" or "blueprint" when it comes to what you look for in a player.

 

Hmmm.