Tua is not the Problem

"Finatik wrote:

I see Stale Tacos, Hitman and Destroyer show up only when Tua has a bad, no horrible game. It was a stinker for sure. Enjoy your week since they lost. Revel in it. It's what you do.

He's the only QB in the league that isn't allowed to have a bad pass let alone a bad game. Josh Allen has looked like garbage for a month yet people are still saying he's in the MVP race after a good, not great, game against the Patriots. It's just such double standards.

Go look at the Allen game against the Jets, that was probably worse than Tua last night. At least Tua correctly identified the open man 99% of the time, he just missed the throw. Allen was throwing passing into Jets defender's numbers.

I'm probably just going to ignore Dolphins social media and YouTube talking head sections this week as the over reactions will be ridiculous. There's no sugar coating yesterday's performance, it was absolutely rank rotten and he cost us the game, not the defence. He's not going to play perfect every game though, let's see how he bounces back.

"Finatik wrote:

I see Stale Tacos, Hitman and Destroyer show up only when Tua has a bad, no horrible game. It was a stinker for sure. Enjoy your week since they lost. Revel in it. It's what you do.

No one likes a wet blanket in a circle jerk.

"dolphin25 wrote:

Not really, you can tell in that picture the throw is late. Still in his hands with all that seperation.

It didn't look like Gesicki was his first read

"StaleTacos wrote:

No one likes a wet blanket in a circle jerk.

You got the second part right minus the circle part.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

It didn't look like Gesicki was his first read

That could be true, but in the picture he is looking right at him and has not thrown the ball.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

Can’t buy your argument and here’s why…

First let me preface by saying Tua had a BAD GAME yesterday. Not going to get any argument from me whatsoever on that, but the good defense v bad defenses doesn’t hold water.

For all of the concern about the OL play against the 49ers, they didn’t play THAT BADLY against a staunch defensive line. Was Tua sacked? Of course. Was he hurried? Of course. You expect that when you’re playing against the number 1 defense however, the throws that Tua missed yesterday; the inaccuracies Tua actually had decent protection. Additionally, the receivers he missed were often WIDE OPEN, no different against a good defense vs the bad defenses we’ve played.

I can think of 5 passes after his first for a TD he would have made and should have made with ease. Why he missed wide open receivers with such overthrows is beyond me. He wasn’t under any more pressure than he had been the last two months.

It wasn’t until San Francisco opened up a lead that they opened up the heat on Tua…because they knew they could.

I think a lot of you are not giving the SF defense enough credit, and you don't seem to be familiar with what Tua struggles with. Tua historically always struggles when he has to make off platform, off schedule throws under pressure. If you go back and watch all of Tua's bad throws in the game, almost all of them were throws where he had to throw off platform or off schedule, or on the run. The niners defense did a good job of getting pressure and disrupting Tua's timing on his throws.

Tua looked great on the throws where he had a clean pocket and could set his feet to throw on schedule. He always looks great doing that. However when he cannot set his feet and throw on time , you get a lot of bad throws like we saw yesterday.

"StaleTacos wrote:

And it's an irrelevant point. I didn't say placement was the issue. Arm strength was. The ball needed to be gunned to the sidelines at his chest. Instead, it didn't have enough on it, and died before it got there allowing the defender to catch up and jar it loose.

"Gunned" Do you actually listen to yourself ever?

"hitman8 wrote:

I think a lot of you are not giving the SF defense enough credit, and you don't seem to be familiar with what Tua struggles with. Tua historically always struggles when he has to make off platform, off schedule throws under pressure. If you go back and watch all of Tua's bad throws in the game, almost all of them were throws where he had to throw off platform or off schedule, or on the run. The niners defense did a good job of getting pressure and disrupting Tua's timing on his throws.

Tua looked great on the throws where he had a clean pocket and could set his feet to throw on schedule. He always looks great doing that. However when he cannot set his feet and throw on time , you get a lot of bad throws like we saw yesterday.

That is a really serious issue to have, and goes back to actual arm strength.

"Springveldt wrote:

So now Tua can't throw a 5 yard out to the near side because a fast LB got there to break it up? The same LB who also covered Tyreek on a crossing pattern. The one who kept up with Tyreek and never game him an angle and held him to about a 4 yard gain on the play. That LB?

If Tua can't throw a 5 yard out he wouldn't be in the NFL. Totally ridiculous take.

Really easy to catch up to a receiver that has stopped at the sideline waiting for a pass.

"Finatik wrote:

I see Stale Tacos, Hitman and Destroyer show up only when Tua has a bad, no horrible game. It was a stinker for sure. Enjoy your week since they lost. Revel in it. It's what you do.

I post every single week during the game thread. I don't think I'm much of a Tua hater but I'm also not going to praise the guy when he has the best offensive weapons in the league and isn't playing as good as he should be with them. He's had 3 great games this season, 2 bad / terrible games, the rest have been average when you look at who they played and how their games usually go. He's also had really bad games in big spots both of the previous 2 seasons. If they can beat the chargers, Patriots and Jets convincingly he will win me over. If not you will get me continuing to doubt him and the organization.

So... *checks notes* if he looks bad with a lack of surrounding talent, he's a scrub, but if he looks good with surrounding talent... he's a scrub? I want to get it right for when I talk to my therapist tomorrow. He's trying to figure out why the logic centers in my brain seem to have eroded over the last 2 1/2 years.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

So... *checks notes* if he looks bad with a lack of surrounding talent, he's a scrub, but if he looks good with surrounding talent... he's a scrub? I want to get it right for when I talk to my therapist tomorrow. He's trying to figure out why the logic centers in my brain seem to have eroded over the last 2 1/2 years.

He has looked very good at times. He's also looked bad at times. Since everyone can only remember the good times I'll point out the bad times. 1st half ravens, 2nd half steelers, 2nd half texans, most of the 9ers game. I'm sorry I'm not ready to crown him the next Dan Marino after winning some regular season games with the best offensive weapons in the NFL. Win in December in meaningful, high pressure, high stakes and hostile environments.

"Destroyer wrote:

He has looked very good at times. He's also looked bad at times. Since everyone can only remember the good times I'll point out the bad times. 1st half ravens, 2nd half steelers, 2nd half texans, most of the 9ers game. I'm sorry I'm not ready to crown him the next Dan Marino after winning some regular season games with the best offensive weapons in the NFL. Win in December in meaningful, high pressure, high stakes and hostile environments.

Here's the thing: That is the case for literally every good QB. Ever. Nobody is great on every throw. Not even Dan Marino. By the way, no Dolphins fan has ever "crowned" him to be the next Marino. There have been statistical comparisons to put his play into historical context, but save the idea that any of us has elevated him to being a hall of famer. It's okay to be happy when your team is winning and your players are doing well.

All quarterbacks have bad plays. Herbert and Burrow and Allen and Mahomes and Elway and Manning and Tom Terrific have all had bad plays.The reason people put stock in things like QBR and passer rating is because they take every play into account. For someone to put up the numbers he has isn't an indication of perfection on every throw, it's a sign that when everything is taken into account, he's remarkably consistent.

Sure he's had bad plays. Bad quarters. Bad halves. Bad games. But somehow, his statistical performance is higher than the rest of the league. That tells most rational people that you can't judge somebody solely by their worst plays because clearly, he's made many more good plays than bad. If you are judging him by the worst of his plays instead of the entirety of them, then you're looking for reasons to knock his performance.

Look: I'm okay with wanting the best players to play for my team. The first job for Chris Grier every day should be to find out how to upgrade literally every position on the roster for a reasonable cost. Every player is replaceable. But if you want to replace the highest rated player at his position, it tells me that your focus is on something other than performance.

You're entitled to your opinion. I've already stated that most of his detractors have proven to be skeptics, not because they hate him but because they like the team. When some of us jump and almost express joy at a rare bad performance, it honestly makes it seem like your priorities are more to maintain your agenda than to fairly critique his play. It's almost like turning down a second date with a supermodel because you didn't like the way she laughed on your first night out. Nobody's perfect.

But, you do you and don't mind if some of us disagree with you.

the run in will be an acid test of his ability. Will he continue to "hide" behind the deficiencies of the OL?

"Destroyer wrote:

He has looked very good at times. He's also looked bad at times. Since everyone can only remember the good times I'll point out the bad times. 1st half ravens, 2nd half steelers, 2nd half texans, most of the 9ers game. I'm sorry I'm not ready to crown him the next Dan Marino after winning some regular season games with the best offensive weapons in the NFL. Win in December in meaningful, high pressure, high stakes and hostile environments.

2nd half Texans? It was only two drives and the offensive line completely fell apart.

Some of you guys need to try harder to pretend to be credible on this

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Here's the thing: That is the case for literally every good QB. Ever. Nobody is great on every throw. Not even Dan Marino. By the way, no Dolphins fan has ever "crowned" him to be the next Marino. There have been statistical comparisons to put his play into historical context, but save the idea that any of us has elevated him to being a hall of famer. It's okay to be happy when your team is winning and your players are doing well.

All quarterbacks have bad plays. Herbert and Burrow and Allen and Mahomes and Elway and Manning and Tom Terrific have all had bad plays.The reason people put stock in things like QBR and passer rating is because they take every play into account. For someone to put up the numbers he has isn't an indication of perfection on every throw, it's a sign that when everything is taken into account, he's remarkably consistent.

Sure he's had bad plays. Bad quarters. Bad halves. Bad games. But somehow, his statistical performance is higher than the rest of the league. That tells most rational people that you can't judge somebody solely by their worst plays because clearly, he's made many more good plays than bad. If you are judging him by the worst of his plays instead of the entirety of them, then you're looking for reasons to knock his performance.

Look: I'm okay with wanting the best players to play for my team. The first job for Chris Grier every day should be to find out how to upgrade literally every position on the roster for a reasonable cost. Every player is replaceable. But if you want to replace the highest rated player at his position, it tells me that your focus is on something other than performance.

You're entitled to your opinion. I've already stated that most of his detractors have proven to be skeptics, not because they hate him but because they like the team. When some of us jump and almost express joy at a rare bad performance, it honestly makes it seem like your priorities are more to maintain your agenda than to fairly critique his play. It's almost like turning down a second date with a supermodel because you didn't like the way she laughed on your first night out. Nobody's perfect.

But, you do you and don't mind if some of us disagree with you.

"Burrow and Allen and Mahomes and Elway and Manning and Tom Terrific " would take them over Tua?

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Here's the thing: That is the case for literally every good QB. Ever. Nobody is great on every throw. Not even Dan Marino. By the way, no Dolphins fan has ever "crowned" him to be the next Marino. There have been statistical comparisons to put his play into historical context, but save the idea that any of us has elevated him to being a hall of famer. It's okay to be happy when your team is winning and your players are doing well.

All quarterbacks have bad plays. Herbert and Burrow and Allen and Mahomes and Elway and Manning and Tom Terrific have all had bad plays.The reason people put stock in things like QBR and passer rating is because they take every play into account. For someone to put up the numbers he has isn't an indication of perfection on every throw, it's a sign that when everything is taken into account, he's remarkably consistent.

Sure he's had bad plays. Bad quarters. Bad halves. Bad games. But somehow, his statistical performance is higher than the rest of the league. That tells most rational people that you can't judge somebody solely by their worst plays because clearly, he's made many more good plays than bad. If you are judging him by the worst of his plays instead of the entirety of them, then you're looking for reasons to knock his performance.

Look: I'm okay with wanting the best players to play for my team. The first job for Chris Grier every day should be to find out how to upgrade literally every position on the roster for a reasonable cost. Every player is replaceable. But if you want to replace the highest rated player at his position, it tells me that your focus is on something other than performance.

You're entitled to your opinion. I've already stated that most of his detractors have proven to be skeptics, not because they hate him but because they like the team. When some of us jump and almost express joy at a rare bad performance, it honestly makes it seem like your priorities are more to maintain your agenda than to fairly critique his play. It's almost like turning down a second date with a supermodel because you didn't like the way she laughed on your first night out. Nobody's perfect.

But, you do you and don't mind if some of us disagree with you.

The question for me has never been about whether Tua is good or not. I've always seen him as a good quarterback. The real question is, is he truly elite and a true franchise QB who can win a Superbowl? The answer to that second question is no in my opinion based on what I have seen so far.

Tua's main limitations are lack of arm strength and durability, and his inability to perform under adverse circumstances. In order to win playoff games and a Superbowl, you need to be able to perform in adverse conditions, and Tua has never shown he can do that. Looking good against bad defenses is not that impressive for me.

Playing well on an all-star team at Alabama is not that impressive either. I want to see Tua do it against good defenses in big games, and with things around him not being perfect before I declare him truly elite and our franchise QB of the future.

My only problem with Tua supporters is they want to anoint him our franchise QB before he actually proves it when it matters.

"hitman8 wrote:

The question for me has never been about whether Tua is good or not. I've always seen him as a good quarterback. The real question is, is he truly elite and a true franchise QB who can win a Superbowl? The answer to that second question is no in my opinion based on what I have seen so far.

Tua's main limitations are lack of arm strength and durability, and his inability to perform under adverse circumstances. In order to win playoff games and a Superbowl, you need to be able to perform in adverse conditions, and Tua has never shown he can do that. Looking good against bad defenses is not that impressive for me.

Playing well on an all-star team at Alabama is not that impressive either. I want to see Tua do it against good defenses in big games, and with things around him not being perfect before I declare him truly elite and our franchise QB of the future.

My only problem with Tua supporters is they want to anoint him our franchise QB before he actually proves it when it matters.

I think the problem with Tua is everything needs to be perfect for him to succeed. I think most above average QBs would perform similarly. As SF's Brock Purdy showed, you don't really need a great QB when the team around you is great. Ultimately, Tua struggles when he faces pressure and when the weather is bad. However, the SF game was a bit of an outlier as he didn't face much pressure and the weather was fine. I can't remember the last time he played that skittish, and the protection was solid against SF all things considered (11 pressures in 37 pass blocking attempts isn't bad), but yet he was clearly shook.

He's fragile and above average. Not bad by any means. Just not enough to win a Super Bowl when things breakdown/adverse conditions exist. Add on the injury history. You don't have a franchise QB no matter how hard you pretend.

"StaleTacos wrote:

I think the problem with Tua is everything needs to be perfect for him to succeed.

This is totally not true. He's proven he can play at elite levels with a bad OL and with a massive deficit in the 4th. He's not capable of playing elite with average receivers however. He needs Hill and Waddle. But that's fine. Many elite QBs need a great receiving cast. The only thing he hasn't proven yet is playing well in do-or-die games, including playoffs. The 49ers game wasn't one of those, which is why people dissing on Tua as a long term solution after that one game (no question he lost that one game for us) are vastly overreacting. Only if he continues to play poorly in the next 2 games does it make sense to start asking questions about whether he's the right QB for a SB run.

"cbrad wrote:

He's proven he can play at elite levels with a bad OL

Only this season and only against bad defensive teams. His overall numbers will be in full correct mode by the end of this season, and that's if he survives it.

"StaleTacos wrote:

I think the problem with Tua is everything needs to be perfect for him to succeed.

Please give me an example of a quarterback who succeeded in spite of having a good team around him. And if Tua is as deficient as you seem to suggest, is his relative success this season because this team is literally the best offensive roster ever? Finally, is our lack of a running game your idea of perfection?

Every successful QB has talent around him. And every QB has physical limitations, so crying about Tua's arm strength without recognizing the problems with other QBs falls a little flat. And you know that roster is far from perfect. You're so locked in on trying to be right, you're totally ignoring logic and common sense.

"Destroyer wrote:

He has looked very good at times. He's also looked bad at times. Since everyone can only remember the good times I'll point out the bad times. 1st half ravens, 2nd half steelers, 2nd half texans, most of the 9ers game. I'm sorry I'm not ready to crown him the next Dan Marino after winning some regular season games with the best offensive weapons in the NFL. Win in December in meaningful, high pressure, high stakes and hostile environments.

You must hate all QB's in the league this year then since Tua is still leading in most QB stats. If he's leading the league while having that many bad games/half then what are the others doing?

No arguments about the 49ers game, he was terrible, it's an indefensible game but other top QB's have had games just as bad or even worse this season yet you don't see every talking head freaking out over it.

Now, if he plays poorly this week in a dome against a poor defence just because the national spotlight is on him I'll be concerned. Personally I think there is more chance he balls out and throws for 350 yards and 3 TD's than there is of him laying another egg like last week.

"StaleTacos wrote:

Only this season and only against bad defensive teams. His overall numbers will be in full correct mode by the end of this season, and that's if he survives it.

But didn't he beat the Bills and Ravens? Are they bad defenses? Or do those not count. Because most teams aren't top 10 defenses. Can't be.

"dolphin25 wrote:

"Burrow and Allen and Mahomes and Elway and Manning and Tom Terrific " would take them over Tua?

Stop deflecting. If I was to take them over Tua, it doesn't change the fact that Tua leads the league in most passing metrics, even after his worst game as a pro. Read everything around that lifted quote for context of what I was saying. This was a sad attempt to steer the discussion away from the fact that Tua's playing at a high level and every great QB has had bad games.

"Finatik wrote:

But didn't he beat the Bills and Ravens? Are they bad defenses? Or do those not count. Because most teams aren't top 10 defenses. Can't be.

Bills defense was decimated when they played us with half their starters injured, and Tua only played well against the ravens for 1 quarter when they decided to stop playing the deep ball and let Hill run free.