Tua is not the Problem

"Two Tacos wrote:

Wait... WHAT? How has this thread has gotten sillier? Now the all time career NCAA passing efficiency leader, Career 199.4 rating, didn't play crazy good? 69.3 completion percentage, 87 TDs to 11 INT with a 11 YPA average isn't crazy good? I think I am going to try not to come back to this thread until Tua is playing again. I just can't wrap my head around this one.

If you watched Tua in college and believe that those numbers were a result of his ability, then we are at completely different ends of the spectrum.

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Again, who has said Tua is a better quarterback than Herbert right now?

I said Herbert has never beaten Tua which is a fact. I know it breaks your heart.

I know a place you can cope.

https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum/forum/los-angeles-chargers-forum-nfl-forum-padres-forum/the-los-angeles-chargers-forum

What competitive situation were they in that they faced each other 1 vs 1?

Or are you saying that in a team sport, 1 person literally beats the entire other team?

If so, I’ll sell you some ocean front property in Nebraska. You’re really gonna love the views there.

"Galant wrote:

Mike T can say what he like from his comfy commentators chair but it's all fluff. The man had his chance to make the Dolphins better and failed. The proof is in the pudding and evidently he can't cook.

So much hate for Tua it's ridiculous.

Kyle over at Locked on Phins had a few minutes dedicated to the ridiculous takes offered by the main sports media outlets. He was restrained and polite but they all warrant far harsher criticism.

The correct saying is: The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

If you ask Tua's backers for their evaluation of him, I'd bet money that 90% of them would list several areas of opportunity in their critique. By the same token, if you ask those who seem to vehemently oppose him, I don't get the impression they'd include many of his positive performance attributes in their evaluation. I've posted positive and negative things in this thread but because I'm for keeping him, I've been referred to as if I can't see his faults.

Check out my post history if you want (you don't) and you'll find where I posted that I don't know if he's the answer, but I know he's not THE problem. No way to tell until we put him into a position to succeed. The good news is that we're about to get the answer to the question.

Why do I get the impression that regardless of his level of performance, some of us are only going to complain about him?

Because people hate to be proved wrong.

"mlb1399 wrote:

What competitive situation were they in that they faced each other 1 vs 1?

Or are you saying that in a team sport, 1 person literally beats the entire other team?

If so, I’ll sell you some ocean front property in Nebraska. You’re really gonna love the views there.

No, but wins will always be directly correlated with the quarterback.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Barry says it for a lot of us:

Sports Buzz
Analysts turn Dolphins’ Hill pickup into referendum on Tagovailoa. And it’s enough already


BY BARRY JACKSON

UPDATED MARCH 25, 2022 5:40 PM
Miami Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa (1) throws a pass during game against the Tennessee Titans in the second quarter at Nissan Stadium in Nashville, Tennessee on Sunday, January 2, 2022. AL DIAZ [email protected]

Tyreek Hill hadn’t even been a Dolphin for an hour when the narrative predictably turned to - who else? - Tua Tagovailoa.

“If Tua doesn’t become the same dude we saw at Alabama, it’s time to move on,” former NFL safety Ryan Clark bellowed.

Former Dolphins executive Mike Tannenbaum said “it’s reasonable to think by Halloween, Teddy Bridgewater taking over for Tua if there are any bumps in the road.”

Multiple local columnists announced that Tagovailoa is “out of excuses.”

And why, exactly, is any of this news?

Everybody knows that Tagovailoa must be better in Year three to be viewed as a longterm franchise quarterback. The Dolphins’ augmenting the offense around him doesn’t change any of that, or increase the pressure on Tagovailoa, or stop any “excuses” that Tagovailoa himself has never made.

We understand ESPN zeroing in on the Tagovailoa angle in analyzing the Hill trade. Quarterback talk - and drama - is what ESPN believes drives viewership on studio shows.

Tannenbaum, who has done excellent work transitioning to a broadcasting job, was particularly tough on Tua.

“Outside of Davis Mills and Mitch Trubisky, I’m not sure what other quarterback Tua would be in front of in the AFC,” Tannenbaum said. “Tua has missed 10 games. His play has been average at best. He has trouble seeing the middle of the field and can’t get the ball downfield consistently.

“With Waddle and Hill, he has no excuses. Of all the quarterbacks in the NFL, he has more pressure on him and Bridgewater is a very capable quarterback. It’s not unreasonable to think he could be playing sometime by midseason,... sooner than later if Tua hits any bump in the road given everything he has to work with. My concern is Tua was he was 23rd in the NFL last season in yards per pass attempt. He struggles to get the ball down the field consistently.

“Coach McDaniel will probably try to move the pocket, cut the field in half, have a lot of plays for Waddle and Hill that are catch and runs that play to Tua’s strength and try to maximize Tua’s ability that way. There are no more excuses. They’re giving him everything a quarterback could want and then some.”

Clark chimed in: “The Dolphins will know by the end of the season if Tua is their franchise quarterback. There are no more excuses. Everyone will be saying, ‘What’s the excuse now, Tua?’”

But again, where is this “excuse” narrative come from? Tagovailoa has never blamed his inconsistent play on anybody else. Some Tagovailoa supporters cited the lack of a sturdy offensive line and a substandard running game, and that’s justified.

Beyond a handful of elite quarterbacks, who exactly would have thrived with an offensive line that yielded 247 pressures and a running game that averaged 3.5 per carry?

Tagovailoa hasn’t been great. But he hasn’t been awful, either.

He’s 13-8 as a starter, and his first 16-start passer rating topped those of Baker Mayfield (88.9), Tom Brady (88.3), Matt Ryan (87.7), Kyler Murray (87.4), Kirk Cousins (81.7), Carson Wentz (79.3), Derek Carr (76.6), Ryan Tannehill (76.1), Matt Stafford (75.8) and Josh Allen (70.8).

Tagovailoa’s 66.7 completion percentage in his first 16 starts (it’s 67 percent if his two games off the bench are included) ranked second among arguably the NFL’s top 20 current quarterbacks, behind only Dak Prescott (67.8).

Tagovailoa threw only 11 interceptions in his first 16 starts, which is tied with Ryan and Justin Herbert for fifth fewest picks among those 20 QBs.

In his first two years, he has been much better (88.8 rating) than Trevor Lawrence in his first season (71.9), and nobody is subjecting Lawrence to the type of scrutiny that Tagovailoa endures.

Tagovailoa converted third downs into first downs 46 percent of the time last season, which was fifth best in the league.

Of course, Tagovailoa must be better. But I’m not sure why it’s being framed in such a negative light, as if he’s a borderline bust, when he’s nothing close to that.

“If this season is a disaster and I hope it’s not, Tua is likely gone,” NFL Network’s Kyle Brandt said. “We already have doubts about your ability to stay healthy and your arm strength. He was a nice little side story in the NFL for a couple years. Now he’s pivotal, he’s part of the massive conversation. If you can’t drive this Ferrari, we can’t keep going with you.”

Heck, NFL Net’s Cynthia Frelund went as far as to say the Dolphins should trade for Jimmy Garoppolo.

“Tua has what he needs,” former Patriots linebacker and ESPN analyst Tedy Bruschi said. “All this does is shorten the leash. Conclusion time is coming. If you don’t show me what you got with all the pieces we’ve given you, they might be thinking, ‘is this guy not the one to do it for us?’

“We’re building our team for the next guy that’s going to come in. That I’m sure is the thought process for Miami. The pressure is on. It’s show us what you got, kid. We’ve put everything around you.”

I doubt the Dolphins are thinking that they’re “building our team for the next guy” to come in. If Tagovailoa fails, then Miami has the draft ammunition (two first-rounders, a second-rounder and third-rounder in 2023) to move up and draft a quarterback.

But enough with the “excuse” narrative. He’s the most talented quarterback this franchise has had since Dan Marino and his first two years were strong enough to earn a third.

Acquiring Hill and Terron Armstead and the other new offensive pieces doesn’t raise the pressure on Tagovailoa; there was already the understood expectation that he would either improve in 2022 or the Dolphins would look elsewhere for a quarterback.

So can’t Dolphins fans enjoy the addition of one of the NFL’s best playmakers without it being all and always about Tua?

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article259665025.html

With all the new weapons we’ve already added on offense, I expect Tua to be more effective next season.

The numbers in that piece show that he is anything but a poor quarterback, so with the recruitment of Hill, Edmonds, Williams, Ingold, Mostert, Armstead and others, along with the new system that Mike McD is introducing, I expect Tua to have a stellar season this year.

And if he doesn’t, none of us will have any justification in continuing to defend him.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

And Tannehill shows every time another team's D shuts down the run that he is NOT a superstar QB. He can only win against good teams if the running game works.

I don't think that's completely true, but that's ultimately the point I was trying to make anyway. Knock Tannehill all you want, but that team's been a perennial playoff contender since he took over. That's what we're trying to build here as well. I don't care if their QB can throw further/faster/deeper than our QB, I care whether or not we're winning games and making the playoffs.

People sometimes forget that the only goal is to win football games. Stats and measurables are great and all, but they don't mean anything if a game ends in a loss. We steamrolled teams last year in the 2nd half of the season, losing only to Tannehill & Tennessee. And guess what- that was a team loss all the way around. Same thing 2x last year w/ Buffalo.

It's not because Tua didn't throw enough deep passes like others here have suggested, it's because we couldn't keep the chains moving with 1st downs. We lost at the LOS, we lost time of possession, and that ultimately loses ballgames against quality teams.

"KeyFin wrote:

I don't think that's completely true, but that's ultimately the point I was trying to make anyway. Knock Tannehill all you want, but that team's been a perennial playoff contender since he took over. That's what we're trying to build here as well. I don't care if their QB can throw further/faster/deeper than our QB, I care whether or not we're winning games and making the playoffs.

People sometimes forget that the only goal is to win football games. Stats and measurables are great and all, but they don't mean anything if a game ends in a loss. We steamrolled teams last year in the 2nd half of the season, losing only to Tannehill & Tennessee. And guess what- that was a team loss all the way around. Same thing 2x last year w/ Buffalo.

It's not because Tua didn't throw enough deep passes like others here have suggested, it's because we couldn't keep the chains moving with 1st downs. We lost at the LOS, we lost time of possession, and that ultimately loses ballgames against quality teams.

Yes, it was a team effort, but Tua also played terrible against Tennessee. Tua has not shown the ability to overcome adversity and elevate his team's play when facing the better teams. That is the main knock I and a lot of others have on him. And not being able to threaten deep and outside the numbers to open up the offense, or make off platform, off-schedule throws when everything is not perfect is a big part of why we are not impressed. Sure you suround him with superstars like he had at Alabama and allow him to work his quick, accurate, on schedule passes he can look great, but when shit hits the fan against the better defenses and he has to rely on his arm and instincts, and improvise, that's where he looks like a deer caught in the headlights who can't overcome adversity.

"hitman8 wrote:

Yes, it was a team effort, but Tua also played terrible against Tennessee. Tua has not shown the ability to overcome adversity and elevate his team's play when facing the better teams. That is the main knock I and a lot of others have on him. And not being able to threaten deep and outside the numbers to open up the offense, or make off platform, off-schedule throws when everything is not perfect is a big part of why we are not impressed. Sure you suround him with superstars like he had at Alabama and allow him to work his quick, accurate, on schedule passes he can look great, but when **** hits the fan against the better defenses and he has to rely on his arm and instincts, and improvise, that's where he looks like a deer caught in the headlights who can't overcome adversity.

I agree there, a lot of teams are built to win shootouts from elite QB play. And that's awesome when you have a guy like that, but it's equally awesome when you can hold an elite team to 15 points as well.

With that Tennessee game last year, we completely shut down Tannehill and that offense for the 1st quarter and a half. But at the same time, we kept having 3 and outs while giving TN chance after chance to blow the game wide open. That is somewhat on the defense but that ultimately comes back to the offense & special teams not being able to control field position and give your team chances to win.

With Tua, we're just building a different type of offense- fast, aggressive play to bust open the seams and keep the ball moving. I don't think that's a bad thing since the goal is consistency- how do you do it over and over and over again? I think we'll have that with Tua this season; we'll see though.

The only thing I disagree with was that it mostly fell on Tua. Yes, he played bad, but there was instant pressure and we only had Waddle to throw to. That's the one time this season where Waddle was largely shut down, so the offense was basically non-existent without a 2nd or 3rd weapon. Gisecki, Parker, etc were useless because there just wasn't enough time in the pocket to make those intermediate throws. The run game wasn't doing anything because there weren't any holes to run through. It was just a brutal game we let slip away.

The good news is that this season, we have legit options and we should have somewhat of a pocket...plus we'll have great running lanes at least on the left side. With Waddle and Hunt, teams will not be blitzing corners or safeties very often either since a missed tackle equals seven points. It's just a completely different look with real weapons on the field and some dependable protection.

I get what you're saying and I agree- Tua stunk that game. But with Miami's 2021 offense I think any QB would have stunk in that game. Most QB's would have done worse than Tua in Miami since they wouldn't have as quick of a release. I mean, look at Brissett...he's had a decent career. But he was embarrassing on the field for us last year. It's almost impossible to evaluate a QB under those circumstances.

"KeyFin wrote:

I agree there, a lot of teams are built to win shootouts from elite QB play. And that's awesome when you have a guy like that, but it's equally awesome when you can hold an elite team to 15 points as well.

With that Tennessee game last year, we completely shut down Tannehill and that offense for the 1st quarter and a half. But at the same time, we kept having 3 and outs while giving TN chance after chance to blow the game wide open. That is somewhat on the defense but that ultimately comes back to the offense & special teams not being able to control field position and give your team chances to win.

With Tua, we're just building a different type of offense- fast, aggressive play to bust open the seams and keep the ball moving. I don't think that's a bad thing since the goal is consistency- how do you do it over and over and over again? I think we'll have that with Tua this season; we'll see though.

The only thing I disagree with was that it mostly fell on Tua. Yes, he played bad, but there was instant pressure and we only had Waddle to throw to. That's the one time this season where Waddle was largely shut down, so the offense was basically non-existent without a 2nd or 3rd weapon. Gisecki, Parker, etc were useless because there just wasn't enough time in the pocket to make those intermediate throws. The run game wasn't doing anything because there weren't any holes to run through. It was just a brutal game we let slip away.

The good news is that this season, we have legit options and we should have somewhat of a pocket...plus we'll have great running lanes at least on the left side. With Waddle and Hunt, teams will not be blitzing corners or safeties very often either since a missed tackle equals seven points. It's just a completely different look with real weapons on the field and some dependable protection.

I get what you're saying and I agree- Tua stunk that game. But with Miami's 2021 offense I think any QB would have stunk in that game. Most QB's would have done worse than Tua in Miami since they wouldn't have as quick of a release. I mean, look at Brissett...he's had a decent career. But he was embarrassing on the field for us last year. It's almost impossible to evaluate a QB under those circumstances.

This game makes me believe that a punter is worth a 4th or 5th round pick if he is good enough this year.

With the Titans getting a grand total of 6 yards on the first three drives, Palardy punts for 37, 36, and 42 yards. Which lead Titans to only need 48 yards for their touchdown on the 4th drive. That is a pathetic display of special teams.

Are the pro Tua guys confident that a Tua led team can now go up to Buffalo at the end of the year, in inclement weather and put a spanking on Allen and the Jills? Just curious.

"Sceeto wrote:

Are the pro Tua guys confident that a Tua led team can now go up to Buffalo at the end of the year, in inclement weather and put a spanking on Allen and the Jills? Just curious.

I think you can put at least some of the blame on the coaching in that game.

"Sceeto wrote:

Are the pro Tua guys confident that a Tua led team can now go up to Buffalo at the end of the year, in inclement weather and put a spanking on Allen and the Jills? Just curious.

Are you saying that it's easy to win in Buffalo, in the elements, in January?

I'm sorry but every team is going to have trouble in that situation.

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Are you saying that it's easy to win in Buffalo, in the elements, in January?

I'm sorry but every team is going to have trouble in that situation.

Haha. Nice dodgeball. So, is that a, no? Yes?

"Sceeto wrote:

Haha. Nice dodgeball. So, is that a, no? Yes?

Do I think that Miami can go into Buffalo, in mid January, negative temperatures, in the snow, and "crush" the Bills, as your scenario states?

No, I wouldn't expect that, nor should anyone.

I'm sure Herbert can though.

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Do I think that Miami can go into Buffalo, in mid January, negative temperatures, in the snow, and "crush" the Bills, as your scenario states?

No, I wouldn't expect that, nor should anyone.

I'm sure Herbert can though.

Well, I said spanking. Hahaha!
Win?? Beat them?

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Do I think that Miami can go into Buffalo, in mid January, negative temperatures, in the snow, and "crush" the Bills, as your scenario states?

No, I wouldn't expect that, nor should anyone.

I'm sure Herbert can though.

Hmm. I didn’t say anything about Herbert, but you did. Know anything about psychology, flash?

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Are you saying that it's easy to win in Buffalo, in the elements, in January?

I'm sorry but every team is going to have trouble in that situation.

…and when did I say or imply that it was “easy”.

"Sceeto wrote:

Well, I said spanking. Hahaha!
Win?? Beat them?

Bills are 8-1 at home in December/January the last two years. As a gambling man, I would say no.

Is it possible? Sure. McDaniels brought his offense into Green Bay last January and ran the ball effectively, tried to control the clock and won. Garopolo completed 11 passes that game.

That's what it would take to win. Not Tua throwing for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns.

"Sceeto wrote:

…and when did I say or imply that it was “easy”.

You said "spanking", champ.

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Bills are 8-1 at home in December/January the last two years. As a gambling man, I would say no.

Is it possible? Sure. McDaniels brought his offense into Green Bay last January and ran the ball effectively, tried to control the clock and won. Garopolo completed 11 passes that game.

That's what it would take to win. Not Tua throwing for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns.

Never said nor implied anything about Tua throwing for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns or anything similar. Do you think I would actually ever do such a thing?
So……that is a yes. Cool. Thaks. This has been a lot of fun in an incoherent way .

"Sceeto wrote:

Neber said nor implied anything about Tua throwing for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns or anything similar. Do you thinking actually would ever do such a thing.
So……that is a yes. Cool. Thaks. This has been a lot of fun in an incoherent way .

Talk about incoherent.

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Talk about incoherent.

Nope. That was just a typo because I am on my phone and I am just starting to go blind. Hitting that age. Fixed it. Sucks. Message is completely coherent.

I’m not that old. It’s just with the small print. Ha.

"Sceeto wrote:

Never said nor implied anything about Tua throwing for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns or anything similar. Do you think I would actually ever do such a thing?
So……that is a yes. Cool. Thaks. This has been a lot of fun in an incoherent way .

You implied Tua being the reason that Miami goes into Buffalo and puts a "spanking" on the Bills.

Did you mean he throws for 125 yards and 1 touchdown or 300+ and 3+ touchdowns. You know what you meant.