Tua is not the Problem

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

"resnor wrote:

Again, my issue with that is that they don't give you the number of attempts.

You would agree that's important, right?

I know you probably think I'm anti-Tua, but I'm not. I just am not sold on him, and I want him to prove he's the man, and I find stats liked this to simply be disingenuous. They're manufactured to try to prove a narrative.

Hopefully these stats are signs that this season, with his improved health and conditioning, and improved weapons, that he'll actually be throwing deep this season.

I don't think you're anti-Tua. As I've said before, if Tua was another team's QB, I wouldn't care one way or the other, so I can't be considered to be pro-Tua. My point has always been that running for your life and still managing to be average is not a reason to suggest somebody is trash. Put a QB in a situation where he SHOULD succeed and if it doesn't happen, he's the problem. Put him behind a historically awful OL and the jury is out. For some of us, that is common sense. For others, it's an excuse. That's the difference between you and me.

I've said several times that we're all entitled to our opinions and mine is no more right than anybody else's. I was accused of being a patronizer and of being passively aggressive, but I'll say it again. But I stand behind what I said.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

I don't think you're anti-Tua. As I've said before, if Tua was another team's QB, I wouldn't care one way or the other, so I can't be considered to be pro-Tua. My point has always been that running for your life and still managing to be average is not a reason to suggest somebody is trash. Put a QB in a situation where he SHOULD succeed and if it doesn't happen, he's the problem. Put him behind a historically awful OL and the jury is out. For some of us, that is common sense. For others, it's an excuse. That's the difference between you and me.

I've said several times that we're all entitled to our opinions and mine is no more right than anybody else's. I was accused of being a patronizer and of being passively aggressive, but I'll say it again. But I stand behind what I said.

See, almost all your post I liked...but you had to say things like "...to suggest someone is trash" as you're responding to me. Please, PLEASE find one instance of me saying Tua is trash. I've REPEATEDLY said that I believe Tua, barring injury, will have a decent career. He's Ted Ginn 2.0. so I guess that's me saying he's trash? I mean, I guess you think Tua is an All-Pro or something?

Stats are twisted and used out of context in pretty much every article or video you'll watch, because they're almost all made by people trying to prove a point.

Like I said, I hope those stats are indicative that with an improved offense, physical gains through training, and finally being healthy, that will see him actually do those things at a higher rate, and our offense is dynamic and effective. I don't see how that isn't a reasonable position to hold.

"resnor wrote:

See, almost all your post I liked...but you had to say things like "...to suggest someone is trash" as you're responding to me. Please, PLEASE find one instance of me saying Tua is trash. I've REPEATEDLY said that I believe Tua, barring injury, will have a decent career. He's Ted Ginn 2.0. so I guess that's me saying he's trash? I mean, I guess you think Tua is an All-Pro or something?

Stats are twisted and used out of context in pretty much every article or video you'll watch, because they're almost all made by people trying to prove a point.

Like I said, I hope those stats are indicative that with an improved offense, physical gains through training, and finally being healthy, that will see him actually do those things at a higher rate, and our offense is dynamic and effective. I don't see how that isn't a reasonable position to hold.

My apologies. In my mind, I was referring to Tua detractors in a general sense, not about you specifically. This is not the only forum where I discuss the Dolphins and in almost all of them, if anything positive is said about him, five immediate replies are made about how bad he really is. I will try harder to recognize the different levels of resistance and try to generalize less.

I sincerely apologize for throwing that shot in your direction and I'll try to be better.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

My apologies. In my mind, I was referring to Tua detractors in a general sense, not about you specifically. This is not the only forum where I discuss the Dolphins and in almost all of them, if anything positive is said about him, five immediate replies are made about how bad he really is. I will try harder to recognize the different levels of resistance and try to generalize less.

I sincerely apologize for throwing that shot in your direction and I'll try to be better.

Thanks man, no worries!

We both want this team to be a team we can proudly root for.

"You don't say that about Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes" is such a stupid point given that Josh Allen made a big leap when they gave him Diggs and Mahomes always had weapons.

Check out this cast of commentators.

I’m going to preface what I’m about to say with IF Mike McDaniel is indeed the real deal…

I can honestly see Tagovailoa this season having the type of season Tannehill had his first season with the Titans.

IF McDaniel is able to make the Dolphins a serious threat with the run game, and the speed we have with Hill and Waddle as well as Gisecki running the seam, we’re going to see some explosive play action pass plays. All of the pieces are there…though I still worry about the RT protecting Tua’s blindside.

Again…IF McDaniel is the real thing.

The thing about McDaniel is that he's from Kyle Shanahan's tree. Shanahan's success leans heavily on his ability to feel the game. He'll have several plays with the same set and if he has success with one in the first half, he'll show it again late and run something completely different to throw the defense off balance. McVay and LaFleur both utilize this in their games; it's why LaFleur didn't want Rodgers to audible and caused a stir early in their relationship. If Rodgers changed to a better play, it would possibly ruin the changeup later.

Will McDaniel have that feel? Will he have the understanding that Shanahan spent years developing? And, how much control will he give Tua, who said that he didn't understand the plays well enough to audible in his first season? McDaniel's the wildcard that will determine how well we start and finish. Coming in with no playcalling experience is probably my biggest concern behind how well the OL plays. Even more than Tua's ability to play well in his system.

This thread is long and tends to go in circles...
The overall premise Tua may not be the problem but he isn't the solution
He's not a problem that is causing them to lose game after game after game.
But he also isn't a solution that will carry a team like Mahomes or Allen can.

May the circle be unbroken.

The new additions will make zero difference.

"Serpico Jones wrote:

The new additions will make zero difference.

Care to elaborate and quantify your statement or are you just being a Debbie downer?

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

Care to elaborate and quantify your statement or are you just being a Debbie downer?

Armstead is a broken down left tackle. Mostert is a broken down running back and Chase Edmonds is a third down scatback. Tyreek Hill is someone I don’t trust, reminds me of Mike Wallace. I expect him to whine and complain all season long.

For us to have success Armstead and Mostert are going to have to stay healthy, Teddy B will have to stay healthy as well because I personally see him starting more games than Tua this season.

From cbssports.com's article about third year QBs and their prospects in 2022:
Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa

Tua Tagovailoa
MIA • QB • 1
CMP%67.8
YDS2653
TD16
INT10
YD/ATT6.84
View Profile
How he's improved
How about this for a stat -- Tagovailoa led qualifying quarterbacks with a 55.2% adjusted completion percentage on throws made 20-plus yards in 2021. Not joking.

Now, he only attempted that long of a pass on 7.5% of his throws, the second-lowest rate in the league, but an encouraging stat nonetheless for the polarizing young quarterback.

Supporting cast
If you ask me, no team did more to help their quarterback and improve his support-cast environment this offseason than the Dolphins. Tyreek Hill, Terron Armstead, Connor Williams, Cedrick Wilson, Chase Edmonds and Raheem Mostert in the backfield, and Mike McDaniel, a Kyle Shanahan protege, as the new head coach.


Tagovailoa has been squarely placed in a no-excuse scenario, and the Dolphins are suddenly explosive and decently deep offensively, plus the offensive line will be better.

Improving his weaknesses
From a clean pocket last season, Tagovailoa's yards-per-attempt average of 6.9% ranked 28th among qualifiers. His big-time throw rate in those scenarios was a minuscule 1.3%, the fifth-lowest in football, only ahead of Jacoby Brissett, Tyler Huntley, Mike Glennon, and Andy Dalton. Woof.

More so than anything else, the former Crimson Tide star needs to be drastically more productive from a clean pocket. That's where the elite quarterbacks separate themselves from the good and great ones.


Strengthening his strengths
Not known for his arm talent, even as a prospect, Tagovailoa's deep-ball accuracy can't be ignored. In college, he dropped many gorgeous throws in the bucket to the likes of Jerry Jeudy and Co. and proved a season ago the ball-placement he showcased in college hasn't vanished.

With Hill and Waddle at his disposal, the Dolphins need to not only stretch defenses horizontally but vertically, much more frequently than they have in Tagovailoa's first two seasons in the NFL.

Season outlook
Tagovailoa is such a complicated case study. He was surgical at Alabama but hardly got touched in the pocket and threw to four future first-round picks at receiver and handed the ball to a pair of future first-round running backs. Was it him or the environment that got him drafted No. 5 overall?


Since joining the Dolphins, he's had mostly the opposite environment and has been a disappointment, no question about it. Plus, he's not remotely close to being the physical specimen of most of the other budding young star quarterbacks in the league.

His situation has been vastly improved, and that will undoubtedly boost his productivity. But in today's NFL, a coach -- even a supposedly brilliant one like McDaniel -- can only scheme receivers open so much. Tagovailoa remaining the starter or losing the gig after this season will hinge upon his ability to make challenging throws. I haven't seen him do that with much regularity to date, and his limited arm and mobility indicate to me he's never going to be that type of quarterback in the NFL.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-third-year-qbs-outlook-for-2022-will-tua-tagovailoa-or-jalen-hurts-take-the-next-step/

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

From cbssports.com's article about third year QBs and their prospects in 2022:
Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa

Tua Tagovailoa
MIA • QB • 1
CMP%67.8
YDS2653
TD16
INT10
YD/ATT6.84
View Profile
How he's improved
How about this for a stat -- Tagovailoa led qualifying quarterbacks with a 55.2% adjusted completion percentage on throws made 20-plus yards in 2021. Not joking.

Now, he only attempted that long of a pass on 7.5% of his throws, the second-lowest rate in the league, but an encouraging stat nonetheless for the polarizing young quarterback.

Supporting cast
If you ask me, no team did more to help their quarterback and improve his support-cast environment this offseason than the Dolphins. Tyreek Hill, Terron Armstead, Connor Williams, Cedrick Wilson, Chase Edmonds and Raheem Mostert in the backfield, and Mike McDaniel, a Kyle Shanahan protege, as the new head coach.


Tagovailoa has been squarely placed in a no-excuse scenario, and the Dolphins are suddenly explosive and decently deep offensively, plus the offensive line will be better.

Improving his weaknesses
From a clean pocket last season, Tagovailoa's yards-per-attempt average of 6.9% ranked 28th among qualifiers. His big-time throw rate in those scenarios was a minuscule 1.3%, the fifth-lowest in football, only ahead of Jacoby Brissett, Tyler Huntley, Mike Glennon, and Andy Dalton. Woof.

More so than anything else, the former Crimson Tide star needs to be drastically more productive from a clean pocket. That's where the elite quarterbacks separate themselves from the good and great ones.


Strengthening his strengths
Not known for his arm talent, even as a prospect, Tagovailoa's deep-ball accuracy can't be ignored. In college, he dropped many gorgeous throws in the bucket to the likes of Jerry Jeudy and Co. and proved a season ago the ball-placement he showcased in college hasn't vanished.

With Hill and Waddle at his disposal, the Dolphins need to not only stretch defenses horizontally but vertically, much more frequently than they have in Tagovailoa's first two seasons in the NFL.

Season outlook
Tagovailoa is such a complicated case study. He was surgical at Alabama but hardly got touched in the pocket and threw to four future first-round picks at receiver and handed the ball to a pair of future first-round running backs. Was it him or the environment that got him drafted No. 5 overall?


Since joining the Dolphins, he's had mostly the opposite environment and has been a disappointment, no question about it. Plus, he's not remotely close to being the physical specimen of most of the other budding young star quarterbacks in the league.

His situation has been vastly improved, and that will undoubtedly boost his productivity. But in today's NFL, a coach -- even a supposedly brilliant one like McDaniel -- can only scheme receivers open so much. Tagovailoa remaining the starter or losing the gig after this season will hinge upon his ability to make challenging throws. I haven't seen him do that with much regularity to date, and his limited arm and mobility indicate to me he's never going to be that type of quarterback in the NFL.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-third-year-qbs-outlook-for-2022-will-tua-tagovailoa-or-jalen-hurts-take-the-next-step/

Totally agree with the final paragraph.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

His situation has been vastly improved, and that will undoubtedly boost his productivity. But in today's NFL, a coach -- even a supposedly brilliant one like McDaniel -- can only scheme receivers open so much. Tagovailoa remaining the starter or losing the gig after this season will hinge upon his ability to make challenging throws. I haven't seen him do that with much regularity to date, and his limited arm and mobility indicate to me he's never going to be that type of quarterback in the NFL.

The whole thing is a fair summary about an unfair environment. For example, the stat on clean pocket success rate- the pocket was almost never clean, making it more of a surprise play than a predictable result. Our offensive scheme was essentially having Tua run for his life and throw as fast as possible....the pocket staying clean for 2.1 seconds really has no impact on the play. Much different than seeing Rodgers stand in a clean pocket for 4.5 seconds and taking shots.

I try not to be negative on Tua because he's been screwed from the start, but I do agree with the author's comments that Tua played in a top-3 pro offense on the college level at Alabama (Clemson and LSU would be my other top-2 that final 2019 season). Seriously, that Alabama class could probably beat most pro teams today if you put all 11 back together. That will always be a testament and a curse to Tua's abilities and it's why I was so against drafting him- we just don't know since we didn't see the magic like we did from Burrow or Lawrence. They were earning the vast majority of their points while Tua just sort of hung out in a clean pocket and picked teams apart.

The other thing I agree with is that this should be Tua's final "unknown year"...either he'll take a big step up or he's likely headed for a backup role. As I've always said, I'm hoping for him to succeed since that's the best thing for our team. But this will probably be my final year of blindly giving him the benefit of the doubt.

However, I'll also throw in a "worst case scenario" caveat. If the line is plagued by injury and we can't develop a running game (also due to injury), this will be a long, sad season for Tua that's filled with disappointment. I'm really hoping that doesn't happen because we still won't know what we have. Personally, I don't want another year saying "Go Titans" in the playoffs...this really could be Miami's year and I'm hoping it all comes together.

"KeyFin wrote:

The whole thing is a fair summary about an unfair environment. For example, the stat on clean pocket success rate- the pocket was almost never clean, making it more of a surprise play than a predictable result. Our offensive scheme was essentially having Tua run for his life and throw as fast as possible....the pocket staying clean for 2.1 seconds really has no impact on the play. Much different than seeing Rodgers stand in a clean pocket for 4.5 seconds and taking shots.

I try not to be negative on Tua because he's been screwed from the start, but I do agree with the author's comments that Tua played in a top-3 pro offense on the college level at Alabama (Clemson and LSU would be my other top-2 that final 2019 season). Seriously, that Alabama class could probably beat most pro teams today if you put all 11 back together. That will always be a testament and a curse to Tua's abilities and it's why I was so against drafting him- we just don't know since we didn't see the magic like we did from Burrow or Lawrence. They were earning the vast majority of their points while Tua just sort of hung out in a clean pocket and picked teams apart.

The other thing I agree with is that this should be Tua's final "unknown year"...either he'll take a big step up or he's likely headed for a backup role. As I've always said, I'm hoping for him to succeed since that's the best thing for our team. But this will probably be my final year of blindly giving him the benefit of the doubt.

However, I'll also throw in a "worst case scenario" caveat. If the line is plagued by injury and we can't develop a running game (also due to injury), this will be a long, sad season for Tua that's filled with disappointment. I'm really hoping that doesn't happen because we still won't know what we have. Personally, I don't want another year saying "Go Titans" in the playoffs...this really could be Miami's year and I'm hoping it all comes together.

That is exactly what Burrow did.

He has two of the best wide receivers in the league in college and then went to a team where that best wide receiver started out as the 3rd wide receiver.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

That is exactly what Burrow did.

He has two of the best wide receivers in the league in college and then went to a team where that best wide receiver started out as the 3rd wide receiver.

I do agree that they both had amazing talent, but Tua wasn't fighting to get the ball to receivers like Burrow was. He'd often get laid out by a defender in order to stand in the pocket and deliver- that just wasn't the case w/ Tua.

Tua went from a fully clean pocket to almost no pocket at all- that's a massive adjustment. Burrow went from a semi-clean pocket to no pocket at all, and he paid the price for it as well. Similar lousy situations, but at least Burrow had some experience executing like that. LSU was nowhere near as stacked as Bama from top to bottom...they just had the better quarterback.

"KeyFin wrote:

I do agree that they both had amazing talent, but Tua wasn't fighting to get the ball to receivers like Burrow was. He'd often get laid out by a defender in order to stand in the pocket and deliver- that just wasn't the case w/ Tua.

Tua went from a fully clean pocket to almost no pocket at all- that's a massive adjustment. Burrow went from a semi-clean pocket to no pocket at all, and he paid the price for it as well. Similar lousy situations, but at least Burrow had some experience executing like that. LSU was nowhere near as stacked as Bama from top to bottom...they just had the better quarterback.

I do not agree with your statement. At least at the skill positions, they were pretty comparable. Jefferson is one of the best wide receivers in the NFL and Chase is looking to be one. Both were on stacked teams that were massively talented.

Also Tua's pocket presence is head and shoulders over Burrow in the NFL.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

I’m going to preface what I’m about to say with IF Mike McDaniel is indeed the real deal…

I can honestly see Tagovailoa this season having the type of season Tannehill had his first season with the Titans.

IF McDaniel is able to make the Dolphins a serious threat with the run game, and the speed we have with Hill and Waddle as well as Gisecki running the seam, we’re going to see some explosive play action pass plays. All of the pieces are there…though I still worry about the RT protecting Tua’s blindside.

Again…IF McDaniel is the real thing.

Eh, mcdaniel could be the real deal and Tua can be an average quarterback at the same time.

We will have the Tua question answered by January. This is it for him.