Maybe this should me merged with the other 100 Vontae Davis post.

 

My choice isn't there. He's young, he will mature mentally, and he'll be a Pro Bowl caliber corner for the Colts. He could have been here too, with a little more patience from those in charge.

 

That's close. I think the ultimate choice to mature is his own. Those around him can influence him to do so, such as his brother was by Singletary. At the end of the day though, he is responsible for his own choices.

 

I don’t think Vontae will ever be better than Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Mel Blount, Charles Woodson or Mike Haynes. So my guess is never.

I do think he will outperform the remaining Dolphins CB though.

 

Is that your complete list of elite corners Matt?

 

He's on the cusp of it as we speak. A simple change of scenery should do the trick.

 

No. Just the ones that popped into my head. I just get a kick out of the term "elite" being watered down so often. If I was just considering active guys it would probably be Woodson, Bailey, Revis, Asomugha and I really like the Haden kid in Cleveland. All I know is that the Dolphins got worse as a team yesterday and that's not what I was looking for.

 

I would say that the odds are against him ever getting it (maybe 5%). If he landed in a situation with enough player leadership his odds would improve, but I don't think his odds will ever be good. I don't think people realize how many physically talented players come and go through the league every year. The vast majority don't have that elite motivation to go with their elite talent. I don't believe that people just mature and get a work ethic at least not at the level that the elite players work.

 

Please indicate your rationale as to why your seem so happy that the Dolphins got worse as a team yesterday.

 

IMO he's so accustomed and classically conditioned to getting by on talent alone that he doesn't have the desire to sacrifice himself ala Reggie Bush fashion when he can instead start in the league w/o all that extra effort.

It's human nature to take the path of least resistance; therefore, if Vontae can play in the NFL and make millions by coasting on talent just as he's done so far, there's no reason to deviate from that course until an obstacle gets in his way and creates enough of a stressor that he does something about it.

 

Even if Marshall or Smith get injured? The Dolphins are still paying Davis over $1M toward the cap this year.

 

I think its up to him to mature, much like what happened with his brother. I think the trade may spark that in him. But I also think it may not have happened here. The trade maybe the smack he needed to wake him up.

 

So, the corner who replaces Davis on the CB depth chart will be better...now I got it.

 

Oh, we don't need good players. We're building for NEXT year. Again. Which this organization seems to do ad nauseum.

 

This year should be about winning. Every year should be about winning. If you want to improve team culture, put together a team that wins more.

Speaking of this season being about something other than winning, has a fail forward fast ring to it, to me.

 

The thing I don't get is that him and Smith came in at the same time, Smith turned his attitude around and Vontae didn't, yet people are acting like he's a 2nd year player who just needs time.

 

It's possible he doesn't change from this b/c Vontae is going from a situation where his irresponsible ways had him demoted to one where he's now starting for a different team despite not change his ways.

IMO one of two things are likely to happen:
a) the feeling of being rejected by Miami pushes him to work a little harder (and however strong the feeling of rejection is will determine how hard he works).
b) this trade sends the message that he can keep coasting by on talent b/c there will always be a team weak on corners that he can start or play for (at least until he gets too old to coast on talent).

 

You forgot to put "who cares he doesn't play for us anymore?"

 

b/c IMO they had/have different attitudes. The problem with Smith IMO was more about immaturity mixed with some arrogance or excessive confidence to where it left him unprepared for the NFL, but he always had that underlying desire to be highly competitive while accepting nothing but greatness from his play. I'm guessing that most players didn't have to work as hard in college to be great as they do in the NFL, especially considering they have to balance school with football, so Smith immaturely took the step from college to pro for granted and likely believed the transition would be easier for him than it actually was. But once he realized that what he was doing wasn't good enough to be playing at the level he believed is acceptable for himself, he stepped it up b/c he was disappointing himself. Therefore, Smith was truly about just needed growing up, which would lead to his light coming on.

Vontae appears the opposite. He's just immature & lazy and seems to be ok with not realizing his potential. IMO the difference between the 2 players is b/c Vontae just doesn't have that inner desire & motivation to accept anything less than greatness from himself, which makes him feel ok about coasting on talent, whereas Smith likely hated knowing that he wasn't one of the best at his position after being one of the best in college. 2 totally different mindsets. Smith just needed to get knocked on his butt a few times to show him he's gotta work at it to be as successful in the NFL as he was in college.

 

but this is where Vontae and Vernon could and likely do differ.
In college, Vernon was an All American. He was a phenomenal blocker and an outstanding receiver. FWIR he never gave up on plays. Early on in San Fran he might not have developed as quickly as a receiver (not sure if that's from lack of full effort or not) but he was pivotal as a blocker for Gore's success, IIRC.

Vernon busted his butt in college to be great and was rewarded with college greatness and a high 1st round draft selection. All he needed in the NFL was a little time to grow up and realize he won't continue being great w/o putting in the work.

Vontae, on the other hand, should've been an All American if he had applied himself as much as his brother had. He didn't seem to be concerned about being the greatest, nor did it seem to bother him that he wasn't.

Vontae needs a complete readjustment to the core, where as Vernon just seemed to only need a kick in the pants (which came in the form of realizing he'll need to work harder in the NFL to be as successful as he was in college).

 

That's not the part I don't get, the part i don't get is why people keep acting like Vontae is a second year player who will get it in time.

 

I couldn't pick any of the options. If I had to pick the one that was closest to how I feel then I would have had to pick option 2 although I don't feel that is accurate.

The primary responsibility is his , the motivation to reach as close to his potential as possible should come from him. Environment does matter though , coaching matters , mentors matter , responsibilities matter , lots of things do.

I don't know if he will reach the promise his talent warrants to be honest , but he is just 24 , and has valuable experience , lots of draft choices are just beginning their NFL careers at his age . By no means am I a fan of how he has behaved , carried himself or prepared, however this team lacks talent and Vonte has elite physical talent and it is difficult to transfer that for a future pick especially with the draft history we have. It just is , at least for me.

Now I don't know exactly how bad an actor he is or has been , and of course the team has a lot more clarity on that aspect , so it could be we got even more than fair value ...could be. I don't see it right now from where this team sits , but obviously Philbin didn't put up much of a fight , if any to not trade him. Now we just have to hope that Philbin is the right answer and that he can develop players , because if he is not it's Groundhog Day all over again.

 

Go back and look at Vernon's first 4 years as a pro, he was very much like Vontae. Think back to when Singletary had to send him to the locker room during one game, Vernon was very immature, much like his brother is now.

 

ahhh, gotchya.
Yeah, that I agree with that. This isn't about Vontae needing more time to get it (as many young NFL players need). This is simply about Vontae choosing to not put in the effort TO get it, which is entirely different. Most of the people who need time for the light to come on are in a position where they're fighting for either a starting job, a roster spot, or a big future contract b/c they're in a contract year. Unfortunately Davis is a starter, should always have a job as a starter (until he gets too old), and will be paid well enough at his current level of play to not feel motivated enough to give any more of himself.

 

I can hear Philbin's pep-talk now.

Come on guys, I don't expect you to win but I do expect you to give 100%. This season is about getting Ryan his reps and weeding out anyone with aspirations to be on a winning team in the near future.

 

I get what you're saying and I can see how it would make sense to draw a parallel between the 2 brothers in this regard, but Vernon had greatness in him during college, and I don't think his underlying desire for greatness ever disappeared, which is why he kicked it into gear when he realized he wasn't performing as well as he was capable of. It seems like Vernon has held himself to a higher standard dating back to college than Vontae ever has.

Vontae, on the other hand, doesn't seem like he ever had that underlying desire for greatness or else he would've been an All American rather than just an All Big 10. He seems quite content with doing little and being an average to above average starter rather than doing a lot and being a great to elite one.


Vernon might've been immature, but IIRC he still worked his butt off to be a great blocker. I've read references to this in a Niners forum. During Vernon's 1st two years (under OC's Norv Turner & Jim Hostler) San Fran ranked 2nd & 5th in avg per rush. Vernon also had to deal with 5 different OCs in 5 years, IIRC, where his role in each scheme changed, and changed in a more extreme way than Vontae ever experienced at corner.

 

If Vontae is like Vernon, how come he can't catch?

 

College and skill have nothing to do with this to me, Vontae has top corner skill, Vernon had top TE skill, but it was the immaturity that held them back. Vernon either grew out of it after 3 years, or got coached out of it, Vontae has not grown out of it yet. Can he? Sure, but its up to him.

On a side note, the youngest brother has had problems and was arrested for murder.

 

I don't know. I though he had more picks than all of the returning DBs combined during his tenure.

Edit:

Davis 9

Smith 3 and Carroll, Wilson, Jones, Clemons, and Culver 1 each.

9-8.

Please don't ask for a snap count.

 

I obviously picked A. He started slow last year, but if anything finished the year as probably a top 5 back by the end of the season. The last 2 games he was our best cover. He looks gassed on a 5 second clip of HK during the first week of training camp and is automatically out of shape? You think he is the only guy sucking wind during sprints on the 3rd day of training camp in any sport any where in the world.

 

I FU*&*NG hate this trade

 

maybe he comes back to us in 2 years

 

I think its likely if Vontae is like any family member than its his mother. That means he may get it, but he's also likely to become pregnant with Vernon.