Wh did Ginn/Beck fail where Long/Henne is succeding?

For 1) Beck didn't have a Jake Long protecting his backside
2) Beck wasn't that great of a QB or we wouldn't have traded him
3) Ginn after 3 years is just now starting to be an all right WR (and he might be able to turn into a great WR)
4) Chad Henne is probably the best QB we've had since Marino. Not taking anything away from Pennington, I have a whole new respect for that guy since he's been here and I hope he stays until he's a 104 years old.
5) Our coaching staff is second to none in this league right now. The brilliance of the coaching staff cannot be matched, not even by the arrogance of Bellicheat.
6) The fans have also stepped up their game. When Can't Cameron was here, there was more opposing team fans in the stands than Phin Fans. That makes a huge difference in the way we play at home, and for away games for our brothers and sisters who live around the country.

That's the difference between that era and this one.

Not sure what Ginn/Beck vs. Long/Henne has to do with anything? More of a case of Cam/Mueller being idiots than anything I would say.

"felly smarts wrote:

For 1) Beck didn't have a Jake Long protecting his backside
2) Beck wasn't that great of a QB or we wouldn't have traded him

Well, Beck typically threw from max protect sets, iirc, he was not sacked much, but he did have ball handling problems.

And he was just cut straight out.

3) Ginn after 3 years is just now starting to be an all right WR (and he might be able to turn into a great WR)

Funny thing is, Ginn had far more experienced Wr to learn from 07 than he has for the last 2yrs, but then Mueller just traded Chambers...what was that?

4) Chad Henne is probably the best QB we've had since Marino. Not taking anything away from Pennington, I have a whole new respect for that guy since he's been here and I hope he stays until he's a 104 years old.

He has had a great start to his career, I'd bet whenever he gets the big head they replay that Weddle Pick 6 int...

5) Our coaching staff is second to none in this league right now. The brilliance of the coaching staff cannot be matched, not even by the arrogance of Bellicheat.

Agreed, Cameron was supposed to be the Qb Guru, but he then burdened himself as HC AND Offensive Coordinator, that left little time to work with Beck, even in the preseason.

Now consider how good the current staff is, the Wildcat was suggested by the Qb Coach David Lee, not Henning the OC, but Lee...that is like the defensive backs coach just drawing up the 46 defense and the HC saying 'implement it" during the season...that rarely happens in the NFL even among Coordinators, among positional coaches that is unheard of, they work with their clique and that is it...normally.

6) The fans have also stepped up their game. When Can't Cameron was here, there was more opposing team fans in the stands than Phin Fans. That makes a huge difference in the way we play at home, and for away games for our brothers and sisters who live around the country.

This may come as a surprise, but attendance was slightly better during the Saban years...we consistently had over 70k people then, in 08 and so far in 09 attendance has been below 70k with the Jets game almost reaching 70k at 69,760

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Miami_Dolphins_season

Game time: 8:30 PM EDT
Game weather: 83°F (Clear)
Game attendance: 69,767
Referee: Alberto Riveron
TV announcers (ESPN): Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, & Jon Gruden

From 2007:

Game time: 1:00 PM EST
Game weather: 81°F (Sunny)
Referee: Mike Carey
Game Attendance: 71,109
TV announcers: (CBS): Gus Johnson (play-by-play) and Steve Tasker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Miami_Dolphins_season

but the trend is upwards from 66k against the colts on MNF to 69k vs the Jets last week.

That's the difference between that era and this one.

In 07, we would have kept Brandon Frye and he would have been a starter for us...

Sparano and Tuna and Ireland are just better than the past GM/Coach combinations, it is only yr #2, but the draft success and player development is far superior to anything we have had since the late 70's produced the Duhe's and Baumhowers and Bokampers..

"R&R Express wrote:

Not sure what Ginn/Beck vs. Long/Henne has to do with anything? More of a case of Cam/Mueller being idiots than anything I would say.

A good question, both were highly drafted offensive players who were designed to compliment one another, Beck was to throw to Ginn, Long was to protect Henne.

Both sets of players were considered "gambles" at the time they were drafted.

i think the difference is that this FO has a blueprint and they stick to it almost without exception .... the other FO looked for a different blueprint and reached for need.

we've all seen that reaching for need has not been a successful plan of action for this or any team ...

the last piece is quality coaching ... this group does a good job of teaching and putting players in a position to succeed ...

"PHINANALYST wrote:

i think the difference is that this FO has a blueprint and they stick to it almost without exception .... the other FO looked for a different blueprint and reached for need.

we've all seen that reaching for need has not been a successful plan of action for this or any team ...

the last piece is quality coaching ... this group does a good job of teaching and putting players in a position to succeed ...

Add to that, Sparano or Ireland do not buy into 'the magic coach" theory, in 08 we picked up a young veteran guard in Smiley, in 07 they picked up a rather worn Guard and did not develop a young Guard to play in Game 1.

Houck was supposed to be the difference maker for that Oline and it just did not happen like that, it rarely does, Anthony Alabi is out of the NFL, so is Joe Toledo, so is Drew Mormino so is Lewinski, so is LJ Shelton (afaik).

Not sure I agree with those assumptions Padre.

I think Cameron didnt care about year one. He was going to dismantle and rebuild the team in his image. The reality is that experiment was cut short so we have no idea if his vision would have succeeded. I think where Cameron failed is in controlling the organization. Once the injuries hit and the victories failed to materialize he lost control of the team. Cameron thought he had more time. If he ever gets another chance he'll know he's gotta win right away

Also comparing him to a Parcells regime is like comparing a piano player at a bar to Beethoven.

Mueller vs Ireland is another disaster Cameron suffered under in comparison

"adamprez2003 wrote:

Not sure I agree with those assumptions Padre.

I think Cameron didnt care about year one. He was going to dismantle and rebuild the team in his image. The reality is that experiment was cut short so we have no idea if his vision would have succeeded. I think where Cameron failed is in controlling the organization. Once the injuries hit and the victories failed to materialize he lost control of the team. Cameron thought he had more time. If he ever gets another chance he'll know he's gotta win right away

What happened was, Mueller and Cameron both told Wayne H after they did their player evaluations that they believed the Dolphins were a playoff team.

"Retool, not rebuild" was the motto back then.

Also comparing him to a Parcells regime is like comparing a piano player at a bar to Beethoven.

Cameron does have the ravens offense playing at a high level same as he did in San Diego.

Mueller vs Ireland is another disaster Cameron suffered under in comparison

Ireland was a first time GM in 08, what I did find inexecusable was Mueller dealing Wes Welker, then not replacing his role with anyone on the roster.

They brought in D Bess day 1 and by week what...6 he was starting? That is a role every team in the NFL has to fill, yet they just sort of ignored it.

Poor Beck had no one to throw the ball to, which makes sitting Lorenzo Booker for 10 games seem even odder.

Trent Green, with his age and recent history of concussions was just a bad idea which ended up having a ripple effect impacting Ginn and Beck in a number of ways. Beck, unlike Henne, was thrown into a burning fire in desperation with no mentor to guide him. He was il-prepared and il-protected by a mediocre line which compounded his obvious lack of confidence. Any hope of having positive experiences overcome that, was sabotaged with the pre season cutting of McMichael, the in-season trading of Chambers and the removal of the groundgain with Ronnie's injury. He was for all intents and purposed "deweaponized" It was a no-win situation for a college spread offense QB who really needed to acclimate slowly into pro style formations instead of being hurled into the snakepit with great expectations.. Ginn just had no one qualified to throw to him, no running game or secondary receiver threats to divert attention away nor a stalwart OL to give Lemon or Beck enough time to launch the kind of canonball we just saw Monday night which exploits Teddy's strengths.

So for me it boils down to the il-advised, disastrous trade for Trent Green as the root cause for both rookies' 1st year failures.

"padre31 wrote:

Well, Beck typically threw from max protect sets, iirc, he was not sacked much, but he did have ball handling problems.

And he was just cut straight out.

Funny thing is, Ginn had far more experienced Wr to learn from 07 than he has for the last 2yrs, but then Mueller just traded Chambers...what was that?

He has had a great start to his career, I'd bet whenever he gets the big head they replay that Weddle Pick 6 int...

Agreed, Cameron was supposed to be the Qb Guru, but he then burdened himself as HC AND Offensive Coordinator, that left little time to work with Beck, even in the preseason.

Now consider how good the current staff is, the Wildcat was suggested by the Qb Coach David Lee, not Henning the OC, but Lee...that is like the defensive backs coach just drawing up the 46 defense and the HC saying 'implement it" during the season...that rarely happens in the NFL even among Coordinators, among positional coaches that is unheard of, they work with their clique and that is it...normally.

This may come as a surprise, but attendance was slightly better during the Saban years...we consistently had over 70k people then, in 08 and so far in 09 attendance has been below 70k with the Jets game almost reaching 70k at 69,760

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Miami_Dolphins_season

Game time: 8:30 PM EDT
Game weather: 83°F (Clear)
Game attendance: 69,767
Referee: Alberto Riveron
TV announcers (ESPN): Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, & Jon Gruden

From 2007:

Game time: 1:00 PM EST
Game weather: 81°F (Sunny)
Referee: Mike Carey
Game Attendance: 71,109
TV announcers: (CBS): Gus Johnson (play-by-play) and Steve Tasker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Miami_Dolphins_season

but the trend is upwards from 66k against the colts on MNF to 69k vs the Jets last week.

In 07, we would have kept Brandon Frye and he would have been a starter for us...

Sparano and Tuna and Ireland are just better than the past GM/Coach combinations, it is only yr #2, but the draft success and player development is far superior to anything we have had since the late 70's produced the Duhe's and Baumhowers and Bokampers..

I was generally talking about the amount of Phin Fans in the stadium as opposed to opposing team fans in our stadium. Monday Night was the loudest I have heard in at least 5 or 6 years. I was proud.

Getting rid of Chambers upset me at the time, but when I look back and think about it....he dropped a lot of passes. Wes Welker trade still pisses me off.

And again to back up my statement about Beck, he was bad enough not to even seek a trade. We just cut him? I wasn't impressed with him at all. At least when we picked up Henne, could look back on his career and say "he played some tough teams in some tough games" Those statements you wouldn't make about Beck. Can Beck be a starter in this league? No. At best he's second maybe even 3rd string. Just another Joey Harrington.

That line was atrocious under Cameron.. especially when Beck played. There's a reason why we only have one current starter on our offense line from 2007.

Some are meant to be coordinators, some are meant to be Head coaches. It might be as simple as that. I still think Beck was handled wrong, sorta just thrown to the wolves with NO OLINE to block for him. I can still see him getting blasted from behind when he had no clue that the D could get to him that fast. He was flattened, but got up and got ready for the next beating. Sometimes he wasnt even finished with his drop back.
Ginn was drafted to high. I dont dislike him, but still, to high. Its all in hindsight, but what would we be doing right now if Willis was our MLB.

I don't think it goes any deeper than Chad Henne being twice the QB John Beck is and he was always twice the QB John Beck was even in college.

That 2007 QB class was weak and we all know it.

Drew Stanton...
Trent Edwards...
Brady Quinn...
Jamarcus Russell...
John Beck...

People saw the success of the 2004 and 2006 drafts and they decided to "reach" for all guys that have performed below par so far in this league.

I remember watching a lot of college football that year and I had assumed that Henne was gonna come out after his junior year, being that he was already a 3 year starter at Michigan. I wanted him. I thought he was the best qb in college football that year, and there's proof of me posting it on the other board. I just gotta find it.

I'd say had Matt Ryan not been around, Henne goes in the 1st round. In fact, I still haven't figured out why he fell to us. And I still haven't figured out why we didn't pick him with 2a, but heck, it all worked out good.

Coaching and surrounding talent has a huge impact on whether a player will succeed. There will always be those players who would be awesome on any time but I bet that there are a lot of busts who wouldn't have been busts if they went to a different team.

Calvin Johnson would succeed on any team but Ginn is the type of player who could go either way depending on the situation that he's in. Hopefully he's in the right situation now.

"padre31 wrote:

A good question, both were highly drafted offensive players who were designed to compliment one another, Beck was to throw to Ginn, Long was to protect Henne.

Both sets of players were considered "gambles" at the time they were drafted.

I guess what I was trying to say is I fail to recognize why it matters considering Beck is long gone and Ginn is going to be a big factor in Henne's success.

Well Beck never had a chance from the start. He was thrown into an awful situation from the start and then never given a second choice. Now, i do think things have worked out for the best and he is nothing more than a career backup.

As for ginn, luckily he hasnt failed. But that is only because of the current regime.

Simply put comes down to Coaching..Player Evaluation..and a Commitment to being Physical and strong willed from top to bottom

"padre31 wrote:

What happened was, Mueller and Cameron both told Wayne H after they did their player evaluations that they believed the Dolphins were a playoff team.

"Retool, not rebuild" was the motto back then.

Cameron does have the ravens offense playing at a high level same as he did in San Diego.

Ireland was a first time GM in 08, what I did find inexecusable was Mueller dealing Wes Welker, then not replacing his role with anyone on the roster.

They brought in D Bess day 1 and by week what...6 he was starting? That is a role every team in the NFL has to fill, yet they just sort of ignored it.

Poor Beck had no one to throw the ball to, which makes sitting Lorenzo Booker for 10 games seem even odder.

I don't think anyone can deny Cameron is a pretty good offense coordinator. But he just didn't have it in him to be a head coach. Most successful coaches are known for being tough and disciplined. Cam wasn't that and it showed with him losing control of the players and his lollipop training camp leading to key injury after key injury after key injury.

the BigTuna
made all the difference in Dolfandom:up:

2 things that haven't been touched on. Conditioning and luck. Green/Pennington situations were similar. Both vets coming off injuries with 2nd round qb's playing behind them. Luck held out for Pennington where it didn't for Green. Although lack of effort rebuilding the line didn't help. Think where we would be if Chad H. had to come in last year. Could have been Beck all over again........except without Hadnot intentionally letting his qb get killed (that steams me to this day).

"FinsAreLife wrote:

Well Beck never had a chance from the start. He was thrown into an awful situation from the start and then never given a second choice. Now, i do think things have worked out for the best and he is nothing more than a career backup.

As for ginn, luckily he hasnt failed. But that is only because of the current regime.

Beck was given the opportunity to compete for the starting job in 2008.

Here's how that was turning out:

Starter: Josh McCown
Backup: Chad Henne
3rd string: John Beck

Then the Jets signed Favre, Pennington was released, we signed Pennington, we traded McCown, Henne moved to Backup and Beck 3rd string.

He was given a chance and couldn't beat out Henne the rookie or journeyman Mccown.

Why was the Welker trade inexcusable? I liked Welker as a Dolphin, but he wasn't producing for us at a level high enough to not trade him for a #2. You can make a strong argument that the draft picks were spent poorly, but trading him for the picks was the right play.

We would never have experienced, not even now, the production Welker is providing New England. That only comes from having Randy Moss playing opposite you and Tom Brady throwing you the ball. Welker is a good WR, not great.

However, I agree that Cam Cameron and Randy Mueller sucked horribly. And that our current regime is awesome.

I think Henne being around Pennington probably was a huge factor. Pennington doesn't have the rocket arm so he had to rely on preparation and smarts to be effective. Henne got to see how a professional works an prepares.

Supporting cast is a another thing. A young QB's best friend is a running game. I think we have that in Miami, not sure :)

"Eop05 wrote:

Beck was given the opportunity to compete for the starting job in 2008.

Here's how that was turning out:

Starter: Josh McCown
Backup: Chad Henne
3rd string: John Beck

Then the Jets signed Favre, Pennington was released, we signed Pennington, we traded McCown, Henne moved to Backup and Beck 3rd string.

He was given a chance and couldn't beat out Henne the rookie or journeyman Mccown.

McCown was not going to be the starter, Henne was. I'm not so sure McCown was above Beck either.