What does Josh, Lamar and Herbert have in common?

"Tuanon4Life wrote:

I forget who it was but one of the Tua haters definitely said the only thing that matters is Super Bowls.

That was probably about greatest QB's ever. Most "Tua" haters are Marino lovers so if SB was part of that classification then Marion would not be a great.

"Tuanon4Life wrote:

I forget who it was but one of the Tua haters definitely said the only thing that matters is Super Bowls.

In the context of, winning like 10 games and making the playoffs and getting trounced. In the context of, the argument that Grier shouldn't be fired because they make the playoffs.

The goal isn't (or shouldn't be) simply making the playoffs.

So if we are talking about someone pushing that we are good since we make the playoffs, the answer is, we want Super Bowls. Understanding that only ONE team can win it per season, I personally would be happy if the Dolphins were at least competitive in the playoffs.

Given the thread title, saw this on my Google feed:
.https://www.si.com/nfl/dolphins/news/where-tua-landed-in-qb-rankings-01jjszk2fh5j

lol… media rankings are shit. Last year they said Love and Stroud were top 5 QB’s in the league and were positioned to stay there.
In this article they say Tua’s best game was the Raiders? Lmao… Sounds like they’re idiots who look at wins to gauge individual performance.

Their top ten include Geno Smith, Love, Stroud and Mahomes was 3rd this year. Lmao… My 7 yr old son could give better ratings.

For me, I'd rank them:

Mahommes (should be obvious)
Allen (due to consistent season/playoff performances)
Burrow (much better passer than Allen, but worse team and Allen is all around better)
Tua (solid all around performance, durability issues and poor defense put him down a tier)
Jackson (all-star team, all star defense, simply an above average QB thriving in a system)
Herbert (has a billion passing yards because he's always playing from behind....whooptie doo)

All six are serious talents, but only the top three could produce similar performance anywhere in the league. Tua and Jackson need to work within a system built around them, while Herbert would greatly benefit from that as well.

"resnor wrote:

In the context of, winning like 10 games and making the playoffs and getting trounced. In the context of, the argument that Grier shouldn't be fired because they make the playoffs.

The goal isn't (or shouldn't be) simply making the playoffs.

So if we are talking about someone pushing that we are good since we make the playoffs, the answer is, we want Super Bowls. Understanding that only ONE team can win it per season, I personally would be happy if the Dolphins were at least competitive in the playoffs.

Right, during Marino years it felt like every year we had as shot at being in the Super Bowl. Now it feels like no shot.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

I'm just going to say this and this only...

Herbert's performance against the Texans, he had a passer rating of 40.9 in a weather free stadium against a team that lost in the next round of the playoffs

Tagovailoa in last year's widlcard game had a passer rating of 63.94 in -20 degrees against a team that went on to win the Super Bowl for the second time in a row.

Yes, both lost but one quarterback had every advantage while the other didn't.

Who was Herbert throwing to and who was Tua throwing to in those game? And how did Tua perform against the same Texans defense less than a month before Herbert faced them?

"hitman8 wrote:

Who was Herbert throwing to and who was Tua throwing to in those game? And how did Tua perform against the same Texans defense less than a month before Herbert faced them?

You're STILL defending Herbert? Geez.

Herbert was throwing too many times to the opposing defense lol.. to answer your question. He was playing with the #1 defense while Tua was playing with the #22 defense. He had the benefit of 3 turnovers for the Chargers (which he completely negated with 4 turnovers of his own), while Tua had the benefit of only 1 turnover for the Dolphins. The brutal cold in KC led to the all-time great Mahomes in his prime putting up a 83.6 rating. KC went on the win the SB while Houston was a weaker opponent. One was a regular season game while the other was the most important game that QB played. Pointing out Tua was throwing to Hill in a record year (for Hill) does not in any way compensate for all of that.

There is NO defending Herbert's abysmal performance in the playoffs. WAY worse than anything Tua has done given the importance of the game. You need to stop acting like there's some sort of equivalence here. There is not.

lol.
Ooh. Theres's been good stuff going on around here.

JFTR, there is so much nonsense being said about Herbert.
So...

Yes, he had four picks, but he had 3 on the season prior to that game.

If you watched the game, you would see that Herbert was getting crushed on like every play. It was bad. You don’t often see a guy be able to wrap Herbert up and throw him to the ground like that. Joe Alt and Slater have been great at Tackle, but the interior was bad and suffered several injuries. In that game, they were all kind of a mess. There was a picture where you could see Herbert’s eyes and just after the snap, instead of looking downfield like he normally would have, you see his eyes looking to his right at the defender who is probably coming. He still made some very good plays.

His receivers are mostly no names and a very good rookie. That’s very important to note.

Ladd has been great, but he is more of a #2 type of receiver. Quintin Johnson was supposed to be that big type of receiver like they lost in Williams, but his first season, he had so many drops. He got better for a bit this year, but it kept happening in big moments. Not good. Look at his TE, Will Dissly. Seriously? He’s not even really a receiving type of TE and certainly far from being one of the top TEs in the league. Imagine if Herbert had one of those more dominant TEs to throw to. C'mon.

There was a game when every receiver, it was two or three, who caught a td from Herbert, it was their first career td. This forces Herbert to make so many great plays on his own.

The playoffs are weird.

Montana once got benched in a playoff game

Favre once threw 6 picks in a playoff game against the Rams

Fouts, who was a great passer, he had great touch and accuracy, etc. He once threw 5 picks in a playoff game.

In the playoffs, it’s do or die. You don’t live to play another week. So, you see guys force plays that they wouldn’t normally have to do during the season.

The Chargers were an utter mess the previous year/years. The coach was fired. Harbaugh came in and had to totally change the mentality of the team, culture of the organization and get a wining record and he did so in one season.

There was a reason why that coaching job was one of the most coveted in the league at the time and despite his history with the team, there was one reason why Harbaugh chose the Boltz and that was Justin Herbert.

It's difficult to be able to isolate players from the team when evaluating them. We all fall into that trap.

The Chargers have a lot of cap space and picks. They were always a draft or two away from being a more solid and complete team. They can get a better receiver or two, a much better receiving TE who can really thrive with Herbert and some better quality and depth on the interior OL. Their GM, Ortiz, did extremely well in first season as GM for them.

Herbert’s NFL records:

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first two seasons (9,350)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first three seasons (14,089)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first four seasons (17,223)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first five seasons (21,093)

• Most completions in a quarterback's first five seasons (1,945)

• Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (31)

• Most total touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (36)\

• Most 300-yard passing games by a rookie quarterback (8)

• Most completions by a rookie quarterback (396)

• Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes by a rookie (6)

• Most total touchdowns in a quarterback's first two seasons (77)

• First quarterback to record 30 touchdown passes in each of his first two seasons

• Most completions in first 50 NFL games: (1,316)

• Most consecutive seasons of 4000 passing yards to begin a career: 3

There is just so much confirmation bias going on here. That’s the big problem with most of these arguments.

Anyway…….rock on.

"Sceeto wrote:

lol.
Ooh. Theres's been good stuff going around here.

JFTR, there is so much nonsense being said about Herbert.
So...

Yes, he had four picks, but he had 3 on the season prior to that game.

If you watched the game, you would see that Herbert was getting crushed on like every play. It was bad. You don’t often see a guy be able to wrap Herbert up and throw him to the ground like that. Joe Alt and Slater have been great at Tackle, but the interior was bad and suffered several injuries. In that game, they were all kind of a mess. There was a picture where you could see Herbert’s eyes and before the snap, instead of looking downfield like he normally would have, you see his eyes looking to his right at the defender who is probably coming. He still made some very good plays.

His receivers are mostly no names and a very good rookie. That’s very important to note.

Ladd has been great, but he is more of a #2 type of receiver. Quintin Johnson was supposed to be that big type of receiver like they lost in Williams, but his first season, he had so many drops. He got better for a bit this year, but it kept happening in big moments. Not good. Look at his TE, Will Dissly. Seriously? He’s not even really a receiving type of TE and certainly far from being one of the top TEs in the league. Imagine if Herbert had one of those more dominant TEs to throw to. C'mon.

There was a game when every receiver, it was two or three, who caught a td from Herbert, it was their first career td. This forces Herbert to make so many great plays on his own.

The playoffs are weird.

Montana once got benched in a playoff game

Favre once threw 6 picks in a playoff game against the Rams

Fouts, who was a great passer, he had great touch and accuracy, etc. He once threw 5 picks in a playoff game.

In the playoffs, it’s do or die. You don’t live to play another week. So, you see guys force plays that they wouldn’t normally have to do during the season.

The Chargers were an utter mess the previous year/years. The coach was fired. Harbaugh came in and had to totally change the mentality of the team, culture of the organization and get a wining record and he did so in one season.

There was a reason why that coaching job was one of the most coveted in the league at the time and despite his history with the team, there was one reason why Harbaugh chose the Boltz and that was Justin Herbert.

It's difficult to be able to isolate players from the team when evaluating them. We all fall into that trap.

The Chargers have a lot of cap space and picks. They were always a draft or two away from being a more solid and complete team. They can get a better receiver or two, a much better receiving TE who can really thrive with Herbert and some better quality and depth on the interior OL. Their GM, Ortiz, did extremely well in first season as GM for them.

Herbert’s NFL records:

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first two seasons (9,350)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first three seasons (14,089)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first four seasons (17,223)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first five seasons (21,093)

• Most completions in a quarterback's first five seasons (1,945)

• Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (31)

• Most total touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (36)\

• Most 300-yard passing games by a rookie quarterback (8)

• Most completions by a rookie quarterback (396)

• Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes by a rookie (6)

• Most total touchdowns in a quarterback's first two seasons (77)

• First quarterback to record 30 touchdown passes in each of his first two seasons

• Most completions in first 50 NFL games: (1,316)

• Most consecutive seasons of 4000 passing yards to begin a career: 3

There is just so much confirmation bias going on here. That’s the big problem with most of these arguments.

Anyway…….rock on.

The confirmation bias is way stronger on the pro-Herbert side than the pro-Tua side, at least in this thread. Note how often the goalposts keep moving for Tua, and how there's a double standard just for Tua. There is nothing comparable for Herbert, certainly nothing on that scale. I have no problem saying Tua and Herbert are in a similar boat: good QBs that haven't yet proven themselves in the playoffs or against playoff teams. It's some anti-Tua posters that just can't bring themselves to admit Herbert isn't any better than Tua given their own criteria.

As far as those stats, they don't mean that much statistically because volume stats don't correlate well with win%. Tua putting up a higher rating over a 3+ year period is far more predictive of longer term performance, assuming of course Tua's injury issues don't interfere.

"Sceeto wrote:

lol.
Ooh. Theres's been good stuff going on around here.

JFTR, there is so much nonsense being said about Herbert.
So...

Yes, he had four picks, but he had 3 on the season prior to that game.

If you watched the game, you would see that Herbert was getting crushed on like every play. It was bad. You don’t often see a guy be able to wrap Herbert up and throw him to the ground like that. Joe Alt and Slater have been great at Tackle, but the interior was bad and suffered several injuries. In that game, they were all kind of a mess. There was a picture where you could see Herbert’s eyes and before the snap, instead of looking downfield like he normally would have, you see his eyes looking to his right at the defender who is probably coming. He still made some very good plays.

His receivers are mostly no names and a very good rookie. That’s very important to note.

Ladd has been great, but he is more of a #2 type of receiver. Quintin Johnson was supposed to be that big type of receiver like they lost in Williams, but his first season, he had so many drops. He got better for a bit this year, but it kept happening in big moments. Not good. Look at his TE, Will Dissly. Seriously? He’s not even really a receiving type of TE and certainly far from being one of the top TEs in the league. Imagine if Herbert had one of those more dominant TEs to throw to. C'mon.

There was a game when every receiver, it was two or three, who caught a td from Herbert, it was their first career td. This forces Herbert to make so many great plays on his own.

The playoffs are weird.

Montana once got benched in a playoff game

Favre once threw 6 picks in a playoff game against the Rams

Fouts, who was a great passer, he had great touch and accuracy, etc. He once threw 5 picks in a playoff game.

In the playoffs, it’s do or die. You don’t live to play another week. So, you see guys force plays that they wouldn’t normally have to do during the season.

The Chargers were an utter mess the previous year/years. The coach was fired. Harbaugh came in and had to totally change the mentality of the team, culture of the organization and get a wining record and he did so in one season.

There was a reason why that coaching job was one of the most coveted in the league at the time and despite his history with the team, there was one reason why Harbaugh chose the Boltz and that was Justin Herbert.

It's difficult to be able to isolate players from the team when evaluating them. We all fall into that trap.

The Chargers have a lot of cap space and picks. They were always a draft or two away from being a more solid and complete team. They can get a better receiver or two, a much better receiving TE who can really thrive with Herbert and some better quality and depth on the interior OL. Their GM, Ortiz, did extremely well in first season as GM for them.

Herbert’s NFL records:

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first two seasons (9,350)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first three seasons (14,089)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first four seasons (17,223)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first five seasons (21,093)

• Most completions in a quarterback's first five seasons (1,945)

• Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (31)

• Most total touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (36)\

• Most 300-yard passing games by a rookie quarterback (8)

• Most completions by a rookie quarterback (396)

• Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes by a rookie (6)

• Most total touchdowns in a quarterback's first two seasons (77)

• First quarterback to record 30 touchdown passes in each of his first two seasons

• Most completions in first 50 NFL games: (1,316)

• Most consecutive seasons of 4000 passing yards to begin a career: 3

There is just so much confirmation bias going on here. That’s the big problem with most of these arguments.

Anyway…….rock on.

What a sad Dolphins fan.

This guy wrote an essay on Justin Herbert lol

Ladd is a “#2” receiver and yet he had more receptions, more yards, more TD’s, a higher Y/R, and a higher catch percentage than any Dolphins receiver.

The only nonsense in this thread is from the Tua haters/Herbert lovers.

"Sceeto wrote:

lol.
Ooh. Theres's been good stuff going on around here.

JFTR, there is so much nonsense being said about Herbert.
So...

Yes, he had four picks, but he had 3 on the season prior to that game.

If you watched the game, you would see that Herbert was getting crushed on like every play. It was bad. You don’t often see a guy be able to wrap Herbert up and throw him to the ground like that. Joe Alt and Slater have been great at Tackle, but the interior was bad and suffered several injuries. In that game, they were all kind of a mess. There was a picture where you could see Herbert’s eyes and before the snap, instead of looking downfield like he normally would have, you see his eyes looking to his right at the defender who is probably coming. He still made some very good plays.

His receivers are mostly no names and a very good rookie. That’s very important to note.

Ladd has been great, but he is more of a #2 type of receiver. Quintin Johnson was supposed to be that big type of receiver like they lost in Williams, but his first season, he had so many drops. He got better for a bit this year, but it kept happening in big moments. Not good. Look at his TE, Will Dissly. Seriously? He’s not even really a receiving type of TE and certainly far from being one of the top TEs in the league. Imagine if Herbert had one of those more dominant TEs to throw to. C'mon.

There was a game when every receiver, it was two or three, who caught a td from Herbert, it was their first career td. This forces Herbert to make so many great plays on his own.

The playoffs are weird.

Montana once got benched in a playoff game

Favre once threw 6 picks in a playoff game against the Rams

Fouts, who was a great passer, he had great touch and accuracy, etc. He once threw 5 picks in a playoff game.

In the playoffs, it’s do or die. You don’t live to play another week. So, you see guys force plays that they wouldn’t normally have to do during the season.

The Chargers were an utter mess the previous year/years. The coach was fired. Harbaugh came in and had to totally change the mentality of the team, culture of the organization and get a wining record and he did so in one season.

There was a reason why that coaching job was one of the most coveted in the league at the time and despite his history with the team, there was one reason why Harbaugh chose the Boltz and that was Justin Herbert.

It's difficult to be able to isolate players from the team when evaluating them. We all fall into that trap.

The Chargers have a lot of cap space and picks. They were always a draft or two away from being a more solid and complete team. They can get a better receiver or two, a much better receiving TE who can really thrive with Herbert and some better quality and depth on the interior OL. Their GM, Ortiz, did extremely well in first season as GM for them.

Herbert’s NFL records:

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first two seasons (9,350)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first three seasons (14,089)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first four seasons (17,223)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first five seasons (21,093)

• Most completions in a quarterback's first five seasons (1,945)

• Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (31)

• Most total touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (36)\

• Most 300-yard passing games by a rookie quarterback (8)

• Most completions by a rookie quarterback (396)

• Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes by a rookie (6)

• Most total touchdowns in a quarterback's first two seasons (77)

• First quarterback to record 30 touchdown passes in each of his first two seasons

• Most completions in first 50 NFL games: (1,316)

• Most consecutive seasons of 4000 passing yards to begin a career: 3

There is just so much confirmation bias going on here. That’s the big problem with most of these arguments.

Anyway…….rock on.

So now stats matter again? Just want to be sure before I try to kick this 50 yarder.

"Tuanon4Life wrote:

So now stats matter again? Just want to be sure before I try to kick this 50 yarder.

Stats and poor WR’s only matter for Tua who is the only QB expected to win while being the only player on the field. Lol

If tomorrow the Chargers traded Herbert to Miami straight up for Tua, no one would be saying that Los Angeles (still feels weird to write that) won that trade. In fact, most would say they did something incredibly stupid.

"resnor wrote:

If tomorrow the Chargers traded Herbert to Miami straight up for Tua, no one would be saying that Los Angeles (still feels weird to write that) won that trade. In fact, most would say they did something incredibly stupid.

I think you're completely misreading what popular opinion is. I remember going to the Chargers message boards and seeing a LOT of Chargers fans saying they were "done" with Herbert after that playoff game, as in they no longer wanted to hear about Herbert being considered some kind of really good QB, or being "fooled" by him. What do you think this fanbase would think if Herbert was our QB and put in that kind of horrendous performance in the playoffs?

That game changed opinions. And I personally have no confidence whatsoever that Herbert would do better in Miami. I would not make that trade. Herbert hasn't shown anything that suggests he's some kind of franchise QB that will lead you to the SB. He showed exactly the opposite, choking at the most important time.

Wasn't speaking about message boards, but national pundits and sports shows.

"resnor wrote:

Wasn't speaking about message boards, but national pundits and sports shows.

Dude.. the "Herbert chokes" reaction was all over the media, a ton of podcasts and commentators went on and on about it. Did they specifically discuss Tua vs. Herbert. Not that I'm aware of. But that game changed a lot of people's opinions. You're not reading public opinion correctly. After that game, there are a lot of people (including players and pundits) that changed their opinion on Herbert.

RG3 even created some unwanted controversy over insisting the national media hold Herbert accountable for his playoff failures like they do Lamar, and a bunch of people reacted saying he was injecting race into the equation. RG3 was pretty fair though, calling Herbert a "Philip Rivers", but pointing out there are really no excuses for his playoff performance, as in he can't blame others for his failure.

You're wrong about this. After that playoff game the view of Herbert has changed among fans and pundits alike (not all of course).

"Sceeto wrote:

lol.
Ooh. Theres's been good stuff going on around here.

JFTR, there is so much nonsense being said about Herbert.
So...

Yes, he had four picks, but he had 3 on the season prior to that game.

If you watched the game, you would see that Herbert was getting crushed on like every play. It was bad. You don’t often see a guy be able to wrap Herbert up and throw him to the ground like that. Joe Alt and Slater have been great at Tackle, but the interior was bad and suffered several injuries. In that game, they were all kind of a mess. There was a picture where you could see Herbert’s eyes and before the snap, instead of looking downfield like he normally would have, you see his eyes looking to his right at the defender who is probably coming. He still made some very good plays.

His receivers are mostly no names and a very good rookie. That’s very important to note.

Ladd has been great, but he is more of a #2 type of receiver. Quintin Johnson was supposed to be that big type of receiver like they lost in Williams, but his first season, he had so many drops. He got better for a bit this year, but it kept happening in big moments. Not good. Look at his TE, Will Dissly. Seriously? He’s not even really a receiving type of TE and certainly far from being one of the top TEs in the league. Imagine if Herbert had one of those more dominant TEs to throw to. C'mon.

There was a game when every receiver, it was two or three, who caught a td from Herbert, it was their first career td. This forces Herbert to make so many great plays on his own.

The playoffs are weird.

Montana once got benched in a playoff game

Favre once threw 6 picks in a playoff game against the Rams

Fouts, who was a great passer, he had great touch and accuracy, etc. He once threw 5 picks in a playoff game.

In the playoffs, it’s do or die. You don’t live to play another week. So, you see guys force plays that they wouldn’t normally have to do during the season.

The Chargers were an utter mess the previous year/years. The coach was fired. Harbaugh came in and had to totally change the mentality of the team, culture of the organization and get a wining record and he did so in one season.

There was a reason why that coaching job was one of the most coveted in the league at the time and despite his history with the team, there was one reason why Harbaugh chose the Boltz and that was Justin Herbert.

It's difficult to be able to isolate players from the team when evaluating them. We all fall into that trap.

The Chargers have a lot of cap space and picks. They were always a draft or two away from being a more solid and complete team. They can get a better receiver or two, a much better receiving TE who can really thrive with Herbert and some better quality and depth on the interior OL. Their GM, Ortiz, did extremely well in first season as GM for them.

Herbert’s NFL records:

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first two seasons (9,350)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first three seasons (14,089)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first four seasons (17,223)

• Most passing yards in a quarterback's first five seasons (21,093)

• Most completions in a quarterback's first five seasons (1,945)

• Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (31)

• Most total touchdowns by a rookie quarterback (36)\

• Most 300-yard passing games by a rookie quarterback (8)

• Most completions by a rookie quarterback (396)

• Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes by a rookie (6)

• Most total touchdowns in a quarterback's first two seasons (77)

• First quarterback to record 30 touchdown passes in each of his first two seasons

• Most completions in first 50 NFL games: (1,316)

• Most consecutive seasons of 4000 passing yards to begin a career: 3

There is just so much confirmation bias going on here. That’s the big problem with most of these arguments.

Anyway…….rock on.

a bad OL only matters if defending Tua, all other QB's are supposed to over come it.

"dolphin25 wrote:

a bad OL only matters if defending Tua, all other QB's are supposed to over come it.

So, elite size and tools doesn't matter either unless you have someone blocking for you?

"dolphin25 wrote:

a bad OL only matters if defending Tua, all other QB's are supposed to over come it.

No, one of the original arguments made by anti-Tua posters after Herbert's rookie year was that Herbert didn't need a good OL to play well while Tua did. Then 2 things happened: 1) Tua demonstrated he could also play well with a bad OL, though not consistently of course, and 2) Herbert proved he also needed a good OL to do well consistently.

Once again, it's goalpost moving for Tua and not applying the same standards to Herbert.

"hitman8 wrote:

Who was Herbert throwing to and who was Tua throwing to in those game? And how did Tua perform against the same Texans defense less than a month before Herbert faced them?

What’s your point? The Chargers made it to the playoffs and Herbert CHOKED. Tua didn’t play NEAR that bad in the sub-zero playoff game against the Super Bowl champions

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

What’s your point? The Chargers made it to the playoffs and Herbert CHOKED. Tua didn’t play NEAR that bad in the sub-zero playoff game against the Super Bowl champions

The only real difference between Tua and Mahomes in that game was an INT. And that was playing against a top 5 KC defense compared to (I believe) the 22nd ranked Dolphins defense.

"His receivers are mostly no names and a very good rookie. That’s very important to note."

If he had such bad receivers as you have said, how did he have all the receiving records and completion records?

Also, if he did all that it proves he's a major choke artist since he was setting all those records every year but folded in the playoffs. Not sure your post help your position.