What is your impression of Jeff Ireland as a GM ?

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

I agree with alot of what you said buut by no means all of what you have said.
I would wager to guess that you hold Ireland responsible for more years than i do. am i right? I don't know, just guessing.
If i am right, humor me and act like Ireland is responsible for only 2010 after the draft, and everything from the off season of 2011 until now. Act like that is a fact, then list the positives and negatives if you don't mind. Just curious to see if anything changes since i consider you a rational person and are willing to play along with my belief of when i think Ireland is 100% responsible.

Since you did not want to read the thread mentioned here is the pertinent posts, apoloigies it is longish and not clear as I can't multi quote.

With respect , it was never "no talent" and talent is not of equal value is it? I did ask where our drafted talent produced at a substantially higher value than where it was selected , you don't seem to think that is valid for some reason. Brian Hartline has talent , is it equal to Mike Wallace or Antonio Brown? Does their respective talents influence wins and losses to the same degrees?

Enough talent to win multiple playoff games. I see a disparity and you don't , there is talent to be sure , but I don't see the level of talent as being sufficient to count on a Super Bowl run , and from Ireland's track record I don't see he will draft as Indianapolis did in the previous post to get bonafide playmakers. Maybe he will , really maybe he will , he hasn't as of yet. That is why I have said AFTER this season if his players have not produced well enough I would not entrust him moving forward with the picks we have and the cap room. You would , fair enough , at some point for me if the production isn't there and you don't realistically envision it to change , then you make a change.

His players have 15 more games to show everyone , me included that he has made the correct draft selections.

Originally Posted by shouright
I keep hearing these things, over and over and over, and nobody ever supports it with anything objective.
You actually do but chose to dismiss them , I asked you to name drafted players that have produced at a notably higher level than their draft position. Ok , I guess you wanted me to do that instead of asking you a question that had MAYBE one answer , Brian Hartline. Other teams , teams that win more than they lose , playoff teams draft players that out perform their draft slot.

That off sets busts or players that don't live up to their draft position. Talent is not equal to TALENT . A starting wr isn't equal to any/all starting wr's , thus Brian Hartline dos not counter Mike Wallace or Antonio Brown. Nolan Carroll doesn't equal Ladarius Webb , Charles Clay and Michael Egnew don't outweigh Jimmy Graham or Aaron Hernadez , Jared Odrick doesn't match Justin Tuck , or JPP .Navorro Bowman trumpets Koa Misi ,Chris Culliver produces better than his draft slot. Jermichael Finley , Clay Matthews , Jordy Nelson ....Gino Atkins , Andy Dalton ....Brian Cushing , Connor Barwin ....

Off the top off my head , but of course facts and actual instances aren't objective for some but when asked to show where the draft nuggets are that this current GM has delivered are , the silence is telling , at least to me. Keep telling yourself and all of us he has produced like top drafting teams , and then tell us the record he has is not really what it is.

Once again, he has this year to have HIS players produce to show he is a success at what he does. You of course don't need to see that as you are happy that he has accomplished what he has and shouldn't be compared to winning teams . You must also disagree with Coach Philbin as he is fond of saying it is an eyeball thing , a gut feeling , trust in what you see. A lot of us trust in what we have seen , luckily for some Ireland has 15 more games to solidify his winning record.

Originally Posted by shouright
Your contention is that the team is short on talent.

Therefore you should provide objective evidence that other teams do a significantly better job of drafting players who produce at levels higher than their draft position, if that's the criterion you're using to establish your belief, and you'd like for it to have any credibility.

Now, I suspect if you really delved into the issue, you'd find that Jeff Ireland has done no worse than the average team in that regard.
That was off the top of my head , the players I listed ,to you , then don't have superior talent? Not sure honestly if you feel that.

My point is you can't equate a John Jerry with a Jimmy Graham , or a Brian Hartline with a Mike Wallace , they all play , they all have made squads , to degrees they have been starters , their values aren't equal , imo and I would suggest the vast majority of football executives would concur.

Ireland has not put players on this team that have substantially out performed where they were drafted . That is a huge aspect imo of how well or not well a GM does his job. It is fair on your part , and others to say lots of other teams could have drafted Jimmy Graham , but when you look at the overall selections and see this is consistent for Miami ,and other teams ( as listed ) hit on playmakers , impact players , pro bowlers it matters. It is not an isolated instance as shown. You can review if you wish and then objectively show those who question Ireland's track record where he has produced like the playoff teams . It also is not just the playoff teams , but to me that is where the focus is , I don't care if we are better than Cleveland or St. Louis over the last half dozen years. The goal is to be a top 8 team that wins deep into the playoffs and has a chance to win a Super Bowl. You do that in large part by drafting players I have shown you.

Again , I have said Ireland gets this year to have HIS players show he can draft and build a winner, if at the end of this year that isn't clear then , I for one , make the change. That to me is more than a fair shot to prove himself. I hope he does , I want to win .

Originally Posted by shouright
But what if those players represent very rare exceptions to the rule, and players like John Jerry and Brian Hartline are the vastly more frequent norm? What if players like Graham and Wallace are so few and far between that when you compare overall rosters across many teams, you find that Ireland hasn't done any poorer job than the average GM? Or what if you find he's done even better?

You can't just cherry-pick a player here and a player there and reach a conclusion based on it. You have to do something far more systematic and thorough than that to be convincing -- to me at least.

Now if you don't want to convince me, that's fine as well. We can just forget the whole thing.
The thing is , it isn't rare , as all the examples show , and again that was off the top of my head. Rare would be only a Jimmy Graham or only a Justin Tuck , it isn't only and the rare aspect applies to Ireland and finding those level of players. Actually it isn't rare because he hasn't found any here , at all.

So you don't feel that measure is warranted and don't feel won loss record is indicative , you have blind faith . Let's hope you are right and Ireland delives us to the playoffs this year , and to a super Bowl in the next three years.

Originally Posted by shouright
The fact that you can pull those examples off the top of your head doesn't mean they represent something that happens frequently. I can think of the last few plane crashes that I saw covered on the news, and that would seem to make them appear frequent when in reality they're extremely rare.

You're misstating my position there.
How many players did I list? Above what number does rare become regular? If virtually all playoff teams show this over the time Ireland has been with Miami , is that still then rare? Or a pattern? I see a pattern , playoff teams ( and others ) find and acquire these types of players , as I have shown.

Originally Posted by shouright
But only one side is actually contending something (i.e., the team is devoid of talent, and Jeff Ireland is therefore a bad GM).

The other side (my version of it at least) is simply saying we don't know whether that contention is valid without any supporting facts.
When I point out what you request you tend to change direction. I for one have never said the team is devoid of talent , I have said we lack talent ,playmakers , difference makers, that isn't the same. Specifically I have said Ireland has not drafted players that have substantially out performed their draft slot. You said he is in the same range for this as other GM's , many players/teams were then illustrated to refute that. My criticism here is that Ireland has not drafted players that have substantially played better than for where they were drafted . GM's that have and do, do this build stronger talent bases for their teams , which tend to produce more wins , less losses and contribute to being in and winning playoff games.

I believe this aspect to be a key component for a GM and one that Ireland has not , at all done well with. One where GM's for playoff teams on the other hand have , and thus a significant reason if at the end of this year we don't see this changed from the players he has drafted I would make the change at the GM level.

You have been shown multiple examples both for players and for teams , you may want to retain Ireland but saying you haven't been given supporting facts is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by dolfan22
My criticism here is that Ireland has not drafted players that have substantially played better than for where they were drafted . GM's that have and do, do this build stronger talent bases for their teams , which tend to produce more wins , less losses and contribute to being in and winning playoff games.

I believe this aspect to be a key component for a GM and one that Ireland has not , at all done well with.
And it's totally fine if you believe that as a philosophical position. But if you want to establish it as a fact, you have to do far more systematic research of this than you've done. You need to 1) show that there is a significant correlation between winning and drafting players who play better than where they were drafted (it's entirely possible those variables aren't significantly correlated, probably because drafting players who play better than where they were drafted is rare and is more than negated by drafting players who bust), and 2) that Ireland has done this significantly less frequently than the average GM and/or the most successful GMs in the league.

Point 2. Name me ONE player he has drafted that fits this criteria , and btw Hartline isn't the one , no disrespect to Hartline.

My point is more than valid and I named numerous difference makers from most of the teams that made the playoffs , so that again validates your point number 2 unless you think making the playoffs is not successful.

Point 1 , it isn't rare when you can drop 15 players who did just that from memory , just like you can't name 1 that Ireland has drafted. This is from RECENT drafts btw , so you are choosing not to acknowledge there is a legitimate point and that Ireland indeed has a shortcoming regarding this. I can and do admit that Ireland has drafted some solid players , that we are not "devoid" of talent and that I don't hate him as some do , that you won't admit there is a real tangible point on this matter is up to you . There is and it makes a difference on the field but you actually do know that .

I am not going to do some detailed metric or methodology when it is not needed , you can continue to be an ostrich on this matter , it doesn't change that I am correct.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

Just do me a favor. not just you, but anyone reading this post.
Go to the soap box/rants forum and read the thread titled "jeff ireland related news, articles and factual stuff". Read that and let me know if your opinion changes at all, or if you or anyone could discredit anything in that thread. Its only 3 pages and I think only the first 2 have credible info, specially the first page.

It doesn't really change anything for me. Nothing there I hadn't already heard. But I don't believe everything I read in the newspaper and some of the quotes are more than a little ambiguous. My personal experience with reporters is that they misquote more often than they accurately quote. (Again, just my experience).

OK, so let's assume Parcells made the final call on the Long pick. Did Ireland disagree? Did he voice his disagreement? Who would he have picked instead? Etc. Same for Pat White. etc.

"Fineas wrote:

It doesn't really change anything for me. Nothing there I hadn't already heard. But I don't believe everything I read in the newspaper and some of the quotes are more than a little ambiguous. My personal experience with reporters is that they misquote more often than they accurately quote. (Again, just my experience).

OK, so let's assume Parcells made the final call on the Long pick. Did Ireland disagree? Did he voice his disagreement? Who would he have picked instead? Etc. Same for Pat White. etc.

As far as i know Ireland hasn't voiced his opinion on the matter but I would like to believe that since Ireland picked Tannehill in the year that He had full undeniable GM power to do so, I would like to think that he would have picked Matt Ryan. Of course that is pure speculation but I think its a good eduacated guess.
I think its interested that you find no credit in those articles that you read but I respect your opinion and if you throw that out the window I believe you are rational on your stance if none of those articles are true.

b
did u intend to reply to my post? i don't see why u did with this rsponse and therfore i find it hard to follow! lol. i had to delete some of it to have room to reply. lmao
4

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

b

did u intend to reply to my post? i don't see why u did with this rsponse and therfore i find it hard to follow! lol. i had to delete some of it to have room to reply. lmao
4

this was a reply to dolfan22's last reply to me.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

b

did u intend to reply to my post? i don't see why u did with this rsponse and therfore i find it hard to follow! lol. i had to delete some of it to have room to reply. lmao
4

Yes I replied , I feel no need to do your work on the matter , this reflects why I feel Ireland has not performed well enough to be retained after this season IF his players don't substantially improve their performance on the field and by the won loss record.

Not looking to change your mind if it is made up , the posts outline why Ireland has to be held accountable for his draft record and won loss record.

"dolfan22 wrote:

I am not a fan in the least.

I do not want him fired during the season but I personally would terminate him from the GM position after the current season. I would evaluate if I wanted to retain him in a capacity that entailed souting , scouting director , but not married to keeping him at all. IMO he is slow to react to movements for the game and we have little to show for numerous higher draft choices , and this pales in comparison to playoff teams.

Peter Principle poster boy , just because you are good or component in one or some areas , it doesn't mean you will be a success at a higher one.

Negatives:

Production from his team , the GM should be a bottom line position and wins/losses playoff appearances and playoff wins are to me , bottom bottom line. He does not pass that standard.

Drafting , as I mentioned and pointed out in the Peyton Manning thread , every team , GM has busts , it isn't correct imo to say a player such as Brian Hartline counts the same as say Antonio Brown or Mike Wallace. All are not busts but the value and difference they provide are not the same . TALENT does not equate talent , and in that thread I have listed off the top of my head at least 15 players drafted by playoff teams in the last couple of years that have SUBSTANTIALLY outperformed their draft slot. Miami has had none , and only Brian Hartline could remotely be considered as a player that has , but not nearly at the impact level of the mentioned players.

This is a fundamental flaw I believe Ireland supporters either ignore or don't feel matters , and it clearly does. It impacts wins, losses and how you have to use future assets. As mentioned by many , Ireland tends to be safe with high picks and for that we lose out on players like Earl Thomas or JPP and settle for less impactful players. This matters , it matters a lot imo.

I believe Ireland has ignored key positions such as S and WR , which in todays NFL have more value than average lineman. Slow to react to movement in the game and is a poster boy for the Peter Principle .Just because you do one thing well doesn't mean you will do well at the next level , or several levels up.

now i see what you were responding to. I just think you are bringing up drafts that I don't hold Ireland responsible for. The drafts I hold him responsible for, the jury is still out on because drafts need more than 1 or 2 years to addequitely judge. And I believe the opposite of your last sentence is just as true as your last sentence.
I totally agree that Ireland has ignored WR and S, but given what he inherited and the drafts I hold him responsible for, I don't think all of our needs could have been met in the drafts I hold Ireland completely responsible for. But that is no excuse for Ireland failing to try to meet the needs in FA that he didn't attempt to meet in the drafts I hold him responsible for. And for the record I believe he has some, not all responsibility for the 2010 draft and all responsibility for the 2011 draft.

"dolfan22 wrote:

did u intend to reply to my post? i don't see why u did with this rsponse and therfore i find it hard to follow! lol. i had to delete some of it to have room to reply. lmao
4

Yes I replied , I feel no need to do your work on the matter , this reflects why I feel Ireland has not performed well enough to be retained after this season IF his players don't substantially improve their performance on the field and by the won loss record.

Not looking to change your mind if it is made up , the posts outline why Ireland has to be held accountable for his draft record and won loss record.

I think if we were on the same page as to the drafts Ireland is responsible for, we would not be arguing one way or the other. since we are not on the same page on that matter, that's why we disagree.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

As far as i know Ireland hasn't voiced his opinion on the matter but I would like to believe that since Ireland picked Tannehill in the year that He had full undeniable GM power to do so, I would like to think that he would have picked Matt Ryan. Of course that is pure speculation but I think its a good eduacated guess.
I think its interested that you find no credit in those articles that you read but I respect your opinion and if you throw that out the window I believe you are rational on your stance if none of those articles are true.

It's not that I put no credit in it. I don't see anyone saying Ireland was not on board with any of the supposed "Parcells picks" nor do I see anyone saying he was. I just don't know. I wouldn't assume that just because he took Tannehill he would have taken Ryan. Different players. Different picks. Teams in different situations. Different head coaches. No matter how much Ireland may have iked Tannehill, I find it hard to believe that Philbin and sherman did not have a huge amount of input into that pick. Similarly, with Sparano a former OL coach with the first overall pick, I'd be pretty surprised if he wasn't strongly in favor or taking Jake Long. Again, the GM buys the groceries, but they have to be ingredients that the head coach wants. It doesn't do any good to buy Japanese Grade 5 Kobe beef if the chef doesn't want to cook it.

"ckparrothead wrote:

Because unlike so many I have no problem with subjective yet informed personal opinions.

What they're informed BY is what matters.

The most convincing information is that which compares Ireland to his peers using an objective and valid measure of the work he and they have done.

That beats the hell out of a picture of Legedu Naanee, for example.

The Naanee pic just sums things up so nicely tho

"HardKoreXXX wrote:

The Naanee pic just sums things up so nicely tho

Sure, it sums up the perspective of one of the sides in this argument, and it does so with one miniscule piece of data that's no different from the data you could gather regarding the work of every other GM in the league.

In other words, in terms of systematically comparing Ireland to his peers, it's meaningless.

"Stringer Bell wrote:

Just to expand on this point:

What is the source of your graphs?

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

That is a negative about Ireland that i totally agree with and would never defend. I would also add the Brandon Marshall trade and how Ireland has not even seriously tried to replace the talent of BM or VD. Even if the picks that were aquired for these trades become the best players we have ever had, I will never defend a GM move that makes us less talented now with the hope of getting better in the future!

It seems pretty clear that the BM and VD trades were really driven by Philbin. Neither guy was his kind of guy and he felt they were distractions that didn't fit in with Philbin's system. Not sure who you expected to get for VD at that point in training camp. And this is just speculation, but I would be shocked if there was any WR out there that Philbin wanted but Ireland just refused to pick or get. I'm pretty sure that if our new HC who made his rep as a passing game coordinator wanted a shiny new pass catching toy, he would have gotten it. Philbin made it clear that he doesn't feel there is a need for the proverbial No. 1 receiver. He had huge success in GB with guys who have talent but aren't Megatrons or Andre Johnson. They weren't first round picks. They don't have elite speed or elite size. A year ago, Jordy Nelson was a bulkier but less productive Brian Hartline. I think Philbin felt he could get similar results out of Hartline. Despite all the criticism here of Naanee, Philbin and Sherman obviously like him. He's been a starter since the beginning of camp. I think Philbin thinks he can get the job done.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

Yes I replied , I feel no need to do your work on the matter , this reflects why I feel Ireland has not performed well enough to be retained after this season IF his players don't substantially improve their performance on the field and by the won loss record.

Not looking to change your mind if it is made up , the posts outline why Ireland has to be held accountable for his draft record and won loss record.

I think if we were on the same page as to the drafts Ireland is responsible for, we would not be arguing one way or the other. since we are not on the same page on that matter, that's why we disagree.

Well the teflon thing is pretty convenient , take credit or deny responsibility , disregarding that , tell me one player you feel he is responsible for that has substantially out performed his draft slot.

Disagreeing with the Peter Principle is acceptable , people do often rise to the top and perform well or even great , however to date Ireland has not , you can not state this and expect that to be believed can you? You may think he will perform exceedingly well , but he has not to date. Blind Faith , I need something to base it on and he hasn't shown me that. As I said he has the rest of this year to have HIS players prove he is the right person for the job , if at the end of this year we have as many question marks as we currently do he needs to be replaced imo. He has gotten more than a fair shot at this , to date he has not delivered.

"Fineas wrote:

It seems pretty clear that the BM and VD trades were really driven by Philbin. Neither guy was his kind of guy and he felt they were distractions that didn't fit in with Philbin's system. Not sure who you expected to get for VD at that point in training camp. And this is just speculation, but I would be shocked if there was any WR out there that Philbin wanted but Ireland just refused to pick or get. I'm pretty sure that if our new HC who made his rep as a passing game coordinator wanted a shiny new pass catching toy, he would have gotten it. Philbin made it clear that he doesn't feel there is a need for the proverbial No. 1 receiver. He had huge success in GB with guys who have talent but aren't Megatrons or Andre Johnson. They weren't first round picks. They don't have elite speed or elite size. A year ago, Jordy Nelson was a bulkier but less productive Brian Hartline. I think Philbin felt he could get similar results out of Hartline. Despite all the criticism here of Naanee, Philbin and Sherman obviously like him. He's been a starter since the beginning of camp. I think Philbin thinks he can get the job done.

if what you are saying about what Philbin wants is true I would say it sure does seem like he is the only one that thinks that and he is the only one with the least experience at a higher up position definitely doesnt have the power to make his desire a reality. sure he has influence as i agree he should. sherman and Ireland have been qouted in expressing the WRs on our team are a problem. I think Sherman who is currently at a lesser role and Ireland who is at a higher role both have more pedigree than a rookie head coach are right about this matter. I believe it might be one of the only things that ireland is willing to go against the grain from Philbin. How else can Irelands comments and actions with chad johnson and armstrong be explained? I am just not happy with irelands failure to address it in the draft and his timing to try in FA.

"Fineas wrote:

It seems pretty clear that the BM and VD trades were really driven by Philbin. Neither guy was his kind of guy and he felt they were distractions that didn't fit in with Philbin's system. Not sure who you expected to get for VD at that point in training camp. And this is just speculation, but I would be shocked if there was any WR out there that Philbin wanted but Ireland just refused to pick or get. I'm pretty sure that if our new HC who made his rep as a passing game coordinator wanted a shiny new pass catching toy, he would have gotten it. Philbin made it clear that he doesn't feel there is a need for the proverbial No. 1 receiver. He had huge success in GB with guys who have talent but aren't Megatrons or Andre Johnson. They weren't first round picks. They don't have elite speed or elite size. A year ago, Jordy Nelson was a bulkier but less productive Brian Hartline. I think Philbin felt he could get similar results out of Hartline. Despite all the criticism here of Naanee, Philbin and Sherman obviously like him. He's been a starter since the beginning of camp. I think Philbin thinks he can get the job done.

2 other points i forgot to mention are:
1. i didn't expect players and picks for BM or VD, but i would have liked it a seperate deal with any team would have been tried to replace the players that Ireland traded away. I think a good or great GM would atleast try to work on an immediate seperate deal to fill the void he planned on making for a current season for future picks.
2. If Philbin thinks he can replicate the same needs as not needing a #1 WR with his Green Bay offense compared to his current Dolphins offense, I believe he is kidding himself. This is the only thing I have disagreed with Philbin on. Other then that I think he will be a great head coach and i like everything else about him.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

2 other points i forgot to mention are:
1. i didn't expect players and picks for BM or VD, but i would have liked it a seperate deal with any team would have been tried to replace the players that Ireland traded away. I think a good or great GM would atleast try to work on an immediate seperate deal to fill the void he planned on making for a current season for future picks.
2. If Philbin thinks he can replicate the same needs as not needing a #1 WR with his Green Bay offense compared to his current Dolphins offense, I believe he is kidding himself. This is the only thing I have disagreed with Philbin on. Other then that I think he will be a great head coach and i like everything else about him.

What makes you think Ireland didn't try to work on a separate deal? There were lots of rumors that he was.

And for everyone that keeps bringing up the Chef and the groceries argument, (which is not just the recent poster i've been talking to, but several different posters in different threads) why bring up a Parcell's philosophy? That implies that you buy into Parcell's philosphies which are proven to be a thing of the past. IMO he made those comments as a Head Coach for selfish reasons. I think that philosophy speaks more to his power happy stubburn ways as opposed to the right meaning. He definitely didn't give his protege and/or the head coach of the Dolphins i.e the Chef, the luxary of picking their own groceries. That proves he only made the comments to benefit him as a stubburn power happy Head Coach. Anyone that still feels the need to use the Chef and grocery argument, I would argue that the chef cooks the meal the way the person buying it wants it. What if the person buying (Ross) or the person placing the order (Ireland) is lactose intollerant and can't have dairy products (4's,5's and 6's)? and wants some (1's, 2's and 3's) that won't upset his stomach? Bottom line is The GM while should try to give the Coach want he wants, sometimes its in the best interest of the GM to do what he wants. Specially if he feels the need to try and secure his job. lmao

"Fineas wrote:

What makes you think Ireland didn't try to work on a separate deal? There were lots of rumors that he was.

I don't know. a gut instinct. I know he had interviews that didn't produce any signings. That doesn't necesarrily count as an Ireland positive if he can't get what he wants.
On the other hand I think next year he will be in a much better position to get what he wants, i just am upset that there was no real good effort to fix the problem this year.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

I don't know. a gut instinct. I know he had interviews that didn't produce any signings. That doesn't necesarrily count as an Ireland positive if he can't get what he wants.
On the other hand I think next year he will be in a much better position to get what he wants, i just am upset that there was no real good effort to fix the problem this year.

But you admit that you have no real evidence or information to suggest he didn't make a real good effort, just your own gut instinct.

"Fineas wrote:

What makes you think Ireland didn't try to work on a separate deal? There were lots of rumors that he was.

plus my main argument is that the smartest thing to do would be to have that deal in place and ready before making a trade that creates a "now need" for future picks in return. if that point wasn't clear in this thread i have definitely made that point very clear in other threads.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

And for everyone that keeps bringing up the Chef and the groceries argument, (which is not just the recent poster i've been talking to, but several different posters in different threads) why bring up a Parcell's philosophy? That implies that you buy into Parcell's philosphies which are proven to be a thing of the past. IMO he made those comments as a Head Coach for selfish reasons. I think that philosophy speaks more to his power happy stubburn ways as opposed to the right meaning. He definitely didn't give his protege and/or the head coach of the Dolphins i.e the Chef, the luxary of picking their own groceries. That proves he only made the comments to benefit him as a stubburn power happy Head Coach. Anyone that still feels the need to use the Chef and grocery argument, I would argue that the chef cooks the meal the way the person buying it wants it. What if the person buying (Ross) or the person placing the order (Ireland) is lactose intollerant and can't have dairy products (4's,5's and 6's)? and wants some (1's, 2's and 3's) that won't upset his stomach? Bottom line is The GM while should try to give the Coach want he wants, sometimes its in the best interest of the GM to do what he wants. Specially if he feels the need to try and secure his job. lmao

You are missing the point about the chef and groceries analogy. The coaches determine the style of play. The style of play dictates the type of players you want. Getting players the coaches don't want does no good, no matter how talented the player is. The GM's job is to identify the players that fit what the coach wants to do. Ireland has stated explicitly that is how he approaches his job. No, the chef doesn't need to be the one that shops for the groceries and arguably shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the need for the GM to draft and find players who fit into what the coaches want.

"RickyNeverInhaled wrote:

plus my main argument is that the smartest thing to do would be to have that deal in place and ready before making a trade that creates a "now need" for future picks in return. if that point wasn't clear in this thread i have definitely made that point very clear in other threads.

That's just not realistic for the VD trade. The Marshall trade was for picks before the draft. One of those picks was used in the draft and the other will be next year. The VD trade was initiated by Indy. Philbin didn't like Vontae and weren't going to start him. I don't even think he wanted him on the team. They got an offer of decent compensation for a guy the weren't going to use much. If you think the deal is a good one, there is no reason to not make the deal just because you don't have another deal to immediately use the picks on. Draft picks are like cash -- one of the reasons you trade for picks is that it is the most versatile currency there is.

"Fineas wrote:

But you admit that you have no real evidence or information to suggest he didn't make a real good effort, just your own gut instinct.

Yes I admit that. its an opinion that I believe would be evidenced by atleast one good result for now. we don't have a good result for that problem this year. I have confidence that Ireland will produce one or 2 good results to address the WR problem, but that's if he is still around. He may have sealed his own fate by failing to take care of it this year. IMO that would be a shame because I believe he should have at least 2 more years to be given a fair chance IMO. What if he is gone and Tannehill turns into an all star that would make any GM have job security and time to perfect what would make a decent team a good team just by finding the right QB? Like i said, that would be a shame if his failure to fix the WR problem is the reason he won't be here to take advantage of the cap and draft he has set us up for!