I'm asking as a serious question. I often have debates of faith with myself when the going gets tough and I have a need to search our some truths.
Unfortunately I am one of those logical types that needs to see a foundation of truth behind anything before I can believe it.
I often get told "that's what faith is all about" - not knowing. Ack, that kills me.
My father is the most amazing spiritual man I've ever met and we have had a lot of discussions about religion and he's directed me for most of my life.
At times I find myself asking questions that I do not have answers for so I'm asking all of you - do you have faith because you were brought up to do so or can you feel some innate presence that reaffirms your belief system?
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Thank you for the power of your question. It is honest and direct.
My answer is........ both. I was brought up in a home and extended family where faith was practiced in regular worship, home devotions, and acts of charity. It was an unmistakenly powerful witness and I can't or won't deny that.
Yet I have spent a lifetime working through all your questions and more as events occur in my life and in the world around me. To me the only logical answer is God's call in Christ to a better way. A way the world desperately needs to hear and heed. The reality of sin and evil in the world, strangely enough, compell me to believe that there is a higher order, to me God, and a plan for how this maddness can make sense.
For all these reasons and more I believe in God.
But beyond rational belief, I have experianced that which to my core, I believe has been a call from God, a claim upon my life, and a desire to strive and lead others in striving for a better way. I do believe I am in a relationship with this one true God.
Hope this helps. -
If you don't mind I have a follow up.
I had once read an interesting article about a movement called "scientific creationists" where you can accept the theory of evolution and all of the scientific facts before you but you feel that there was a creator that had a hand in the changes.
If I recall the order of creation it almost exactly falls into order with what scientists belief.
here is my twist on this - I remember reading that an eternity is but the blink of an eye to God.
Could, in your opinion, the word be written in a timespan of days in order for humans to be able to comprehent the immense scope of what happened? -
My definition of God is a unifying force that connects all things, a kind of universal consciousness. I believe in God b/c I have felt that presence that reaffirms my beliefs.
I was raised catholic (13 years of catholic school) but when I started to question those teachings I found the answers very unsatisfactory. That drove me to question my belief in God. After many years of soul searching and study I concluded that my problem was with religion and not with God. -
Do you miss the unity of the social structure of the church, priest etc...? -
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I have Faith in God from a mixture of both the Rational and the Supranatural Hof13, it's odd in a way, the argument FOR a God is much stronger to me then the argument AGAINST God.
Simon Greenleaf's "Testimony of the Evangelists" is a very persuasive point of view, devoid of emotions (in a way) Greenleaf clearly lays out the case from Noah to John, I find his logic and reasoning impeccable.
Then on the other side, there is personal experience, not the "I prayed and got a New Home" type, rather a deep and slow process punctuated by moments of spontaneous enlightenment, to "think God" as in approach situations in a manner that is put forward in Scripture is to gain Knowledge and Understanding, really quite remarkable, and not bad for 25 cents at any Thrift shop. -
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Reading Rafael's answer it is very similar to what mine would be without the church upbringing. I as well felt that presense that more gave me my belief than reaffirmed it. It reaffirmed a few beliefs I have always had growing up.
I have never been nor do I plan to ever attend a christian service. I do plan on reading the bible as it is an important book in many ways. -
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Either some of you live on the "left coast" or you have more trouble sleeping than I do!
Let me try and answer some of the questions and comment on some of the observations. If I miss one that someone would like a specific answer to, please let me know.
I think an underlying question in a few of the responses regards how might one look at the Bible? For me the Bible is the sole, authoratative norm for the faith and life of the Chucrh and its people. It is a textbook definiton but works very well. I don't think literal understandings work very well since we are so far removed from events. Besides literalism often pushes you to incidentalism where suddenly incidental events take on a greater value than they should.
I am not sure Hero, how what was called scientific creationism was defined as in your book so I am careful to embrace it too fully but I suppose I would fall into something like that. I think the Genesis accounts are about WHO and WHY things are created and not much about HOW. To ask a text 3,000 plus years old to deal with modern science is to ask it to have made sense only to us and not to the first folks who recieved it. Can't do that.
As to congregational attendance.
What is faith about? Is it about you or is it about God? If your understanding is that belief in God is about you then attendance is unecessary. But if you believe that God should be worshipped because God deserves to be worshipped. If it is about publically and regularly joining others in praise, prayer, and fellowship from and with God, then participation in public worship is essential. Many are turned off because they are taught to expect that worship will "give" them something, i.e. good feelings, strength, an "in" with God, etc., and if they either don't get it or feel they don't need/want it they depart.
In years of experiance and questions that is what seperates folks who regularly attend and those who don't.
Again, hope this furthers the discussion. -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
This is a great discussion. During the last year, I to have been trying to understand my own spiritual beliefs. I was not raised in a religious household, although I did go to Church when I was younger to a Unitarian Church.
A good friend of mine is studying to become a Pastor. He is strongly aligned with evangelical Baptist beliefs, and believes firmly in the bible, and that it teaches us that Christ died for our sins. And since Christ died for our sins...if you believe in Christ, and only through Christ can one get to heaven, as he is your advocate infront of God. Doing good things...being a good person...those do not get you into heaven..period.
I had a very hard time with this...and we spent alot of time reading scripture so that I could try and understand what it was that the bible was actually teaching us.
I tried to believe that this was the way it should be....but it never resonated in the one place it should have, my heart. I just honestly did NOT believe that someone like Mother Theresa who was not an evangelical would not be allowed to go to heaven, and yet someone who had done horrible things in their life, but had accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, would, because again...Jesus died for our sins...so that we cannot stand before god with sin. Or that someone who was raised in Iran, who may have never had any chance to even learn about Jesus Christ, have no way of going to heaven.
To me...there is just a missing of "balance" within the bible...and Christian religion...and its "either" "or" teachings. That one cannot experience God, or Jesus unless they are evangelicals.
For me..some of the so called Earth based religions were more logical...I guess you could say. That every living thing is connected. Or the possibility that life on Earth may not have even originated on Earth...is it not possible logically speaking, that we are descended from another planet...which does not completley remove God from the equation. Why couldnt he have been their god?
For me...I just have a hard time with the "we can only be the right ones" belief. Any religion that forces you into a corner...doesnt seem genuine to me...it seems very controlling.
But...asking these questions and having these discussions are very important. -
That's another good point "right and wrong" religions. My basis is that they are all trying to attain the same basic end and each interpretation may be slightly different.
Also, I have no doubt that Jesus existed, but I wonder at times - was he just a man? In that era people knew nothing of science and it probably didn't take much for them to interpret the facts as they saw them as miracles.
Again, I ask that question not trying to denounce religion but better understand. -
As a young boy I went to Church and Sunday School every Sunday. At age ten I was baptized in the Methodist faith. This continued thruout my teen years. When I got out into the world and had the chance to view other faiths it put me on to a path of descovery to where I now stand. I don't put alot of stock in organized religion because of the preaching that if you are not this or that you will not get to Heaven. That just does not sit with my belief that God is all loving and all forgiving. A love and forgiveness that we can't comprehend or understand, we can only take on faith alone.
Two very personal acts happened to me that, in my mind and heart, prove that there is a God and he is with me always. Both of these happened in my 30's when I was still searching. Since then, when I open my heart God speaks to me, no not in my ear as such but in ways to let me know hes there and cares and wants me to be the best I can be. It happens in hundreds of ways but I always feel better and so loved. Its just the very best and there are no words to describe it.
I hope this helps and God bless you on your journey. -
IMO the bible is full of contradictions and can't possibly be the sole authoritative voice on anything. It was put together by men with personal and political ambitions and is much more the work of man than the word of God.
As for my belief in God is not so much about me but rather something that I don't believe should be tainted by the opinions of self-interested people. Most churches contain too much judgment of others for my tastes. Too much "think like me or you'll go to hell" stuff. I believe the message of the bible is 'love one another'. All that additional text is people's opinion on how to do that. I also don't believe that a true God would want to be worshipped. A true God would want harmony in the universe and could care less about whether or not he was being praised for it. Much less care about specific rules for how he should be praised. I completely get the importance of being grateful (important to people, not to God) but all the church rules are just political methods used to control people rather than encourage individual thought.
I've spent time studying many religions and when you get them down to the basics they are all remarkably similar. Many of the stories in the bible itself are remarkably similar to stories from other more ancient cultures. What separates them is the rules the governing bodies have incorporated over time. IMO you find God in those similarities. The differences are the result of Man's influence. -
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I love my church and my Bible.
To me, the Bible does not contradict itself. I believe it is written by men who God gave the words to. And the Gospels are written by 4 different men, with 4 different backgrounds, so, each view is a little different in some places.(this is true in all books of the Bible)
I can go to the Bible and find anything I need to help me with problems, inspiration, and spiritual help.
I go to church to be with, and fellowship with, other Christians. It helps to keep me strong in my faith. And yes, there are problems in every church of one kind or another, but that's where I depend on the Bible to get me through them.
It's also wonderful to share questions and help each other search for answers.
We can ask our Pastor anything and he does everything in his power to help us find help and answers.
It's hard for me to write what I believe, but I hope I made some sense to you.
Just keep studying, praying etc. and you'll be fine.
I find a good study Bible and good concordances are wonderful things to have. Search and study, you'll be amazed what you'll discover.mullingan likes this. -
Thank you for your insights it sounds like it's a wonderful relationship you have with your church & pastor. -
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Maybe after I get some more solid footing for my own opinions I can embrace a community in that regard. -
We're a very diverse group of people, but we laugh, cry and depend on each other all the time. It's great to me.
I don't like all the ceremony some churches have, but that's just me. We observe the Lords Supper and try our best to follow and do, what Jesus would have us to do.
Our Pastor says that singing gets us ready for the message. And sometimes it does, but sometimes some of us are ready for the message right away. (Maybe we need it worse. LOL)
I'm loving this thread and posts.
Do you guys pray for the Dolphins? I pray for their wisdom and safety (and yes for a win.) -
I am learning that if you have a group of people who love themselves and then bring that love together in a community it is a very beautiful thing. Indivisual accomplishment can increase by a lot when someone is in such a situation.
I think that the "community" you talk of can be really anything. From AA to religion to weight loss, any group of people who get together with the focus on something outside of themselves to need fufilment can end up in serious problems.dolphindebby likes this. -
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I wish for a win with all I can, but I stop short of prayer.
I had a conversation once with a person that did not believe in God. He asked me "what if you're wrong". My response was this "If I pray every night and believe and I'm wrong I'll never know the difference - where you do not pray and choose not to believe - if you're wrong there is a lot more on the line".dolphindebby likes this. -
My answer to that as of this moment would be, "It doesn't matter. All that matters to me is that it feels good to believe that I am right" -
I just presented him the same question he offered me. - What if you're wrong?
What's right for every person should not be held against them. I didn't tell him he was wrong for what he felt but that right & wrong was a two sided coin that both of us could be held accountable for. -
The Rev Totus Tuus Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box Club Member
My turn to weigh in... :wink2:
My God is love and light and there is no darkness in him. I have a very childlike relationship with Him---childlike not childish. I come to him like a son looking for guidance and comfort.
I may not always understand His plan in my life but I can definitely see His hand in my life. I do doubt his methods for me but like I always say, there is nothing wrong with doubt, it's what you do with that doubt that defines you.
If you know the story of the Prodigal Son in the Bible, then you can identify with the way I feel about my God. Sometimes I am the older son who needs to forgive and am asked by Him to forgive and sometimes I am the younger son who needs forgiveness and is welcomed back into His house no mater what I do.
Like I said before, it is very simplistic and childlike, but it works for me. :yes:vt_dolfan and dolphindebby like this. -
Do you feel that you can make errors in life but still come back with full grace?
I don't want to turn a blind eye to doubt or to have faith without an understanding of why I have it. -
The Rev Totus Tuus Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box Club Member
We are human but we should try not to keep on repeating the same sins.dolphindebby likes this. -
Another thing I came to understand that there are personal believes that change the severity and nature of sins. If a person honestly and with faith believes they are not doing wrong is it still a sin?
Isn't it true though that you can be an otherwise miserable person your entire life then find acceptance on your death bed and have it all washed away? (not a strategy, just seems like a loophole for some) -
Just curious what do you think about a situation where god does not actually forgive because god does not go through the step to first condem? -
I feel like you. I am His child and I thank Him every day for His love, blessings, forgiveness and for being my "best friend".The Rev likes this. -
He's my personal Lord and Saviour, just like He offers to be to every one else that seeks Him out. -
I didn't mean it was wrong to do so - it just isn't right for me. -
I keep trying, but I get my thoughts all jumbled up while trying to type. :wink2: -
jumbled up is the story of my existence.
This has been a good thread. -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Rev and Debby,
I am interested in your feelings about salvation, and who can receive it? What concerns me most about some religions, is the tendency to be inclusive, as I pointed out with the most conservative protestant religions, and the Southern Baptist Church.
Why is it necessary to believe that one way, is the only way? Thats been the single biggest obstacle in keeping me from becoming a "Christian" because if I dont honestly believe in my heart that God would judge like this....then I would only be lying to him ,and myself by calling myself a Christian.
In some ways...I really like what the Unitarian Church has to offer...it appeals to me because it allows me to have and share in community...and explore many different beliefs. But Im told that doing so will lead me to damnation, for myself and my family. That scares me...the what if they are right...question. But in my heart...I believe God. whomever that is...be it man or woman...because I believe strongly that there needs to be a balance, would look upon me for how I lived my life, did I show love, and compassion, and humility, and also the acceptance that I AM A SINNER.
What are your thoughts on this? -
I love it when The Rev & Ohio get on here. Their so knowledgeable and understanding about things. -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
I think its wonderful to be able to talk about such powerful and meanigful things, without feeling shameful, embarrased, or un educated.
I thank all of you for this.
Bryan
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