X Extension DONE!

"resnor wrote:

If I voluntarily sign a contract, for less than I think I'm worth, just to ensure I get a job, then no, I don't think it's appropriate to try to get more money.

But that's just me.

Then you have left a lot of money on the table and do not value your worth.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Then you have left a lot of money on the table and do not value your worth.

Then I shouldn't have signed the contract.

Sorry, I don't view money as the end all be all. Money is a necessary evil for living, but it's not something I pursue, and isn't something that I get a sense of accomplishment from having.

"resnor wrote:

Then I shouldn't have signed the contract.

Sorry, I don't view money as the end all be all. Money is a necessary evil for living, but it's not something I pursue, and isn't something that I get a sense of accomplishment from having.

I don't either. I just know not to live for less than what I am worth and to not be taken advantage of.

"Irishman wrote:

Part 2 provides examples from some current contracts that highlight the differences between how some of the guarantees are made and why they were chosen. This will go a long way to answering your questions.

It doesn't. No examples of a quality of play only guarantee. No examples of anything that would restrict a player from holding out if they are willing to forgo the salary/payback signing bonuses. Just examples of how guaranteed money effects salary caps, and how players hit various marks to earn bonuses. Part 2 had nothing new.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I don't either. I just know not to live for less than what I am worth and to not be taken advantage of.

You're ignoring the substance in favor of a strawman. We are talking about two scenarios:

1. Player who signs a contract making him the highest paid at his position. Do you believe that X signed for less than he believed he was worth?

2. A hypothetical situation where I am signing a contract, and voluntarily signing for less than I believe I am worth, because I want to guarantee I get the job.

If I sign for less, knowing that I'm going to them hold out for more money than I'm signing for, then I would argue that I fraudulently entered into that contract. A player shouldn't be comparing his salary to others, given that newer contracts are ALWAYS going up. So the highest paid CB in 2021, even if he is the best player, most likely won't be the highest paid in 2023, as the next "best" CB in the league is going to use the previous best players contract as his baseline.

"resnor wrote:

You're ignoring the substance in favor of a strawman. We are talking about two scenarios:

1. Player who signs a contract making him the highest paid at his position. Do you believe that X signed for less than he believed he was worth?

2. A hypothetical situation where I am signing a contract, and voluntarily signing for less than I believe I am worth, because I want to guarantee I get the job.

If I sign for less, knowing that I'm going to them hold out for more money than I'm signing for, then I would argue that I fraudulently entered into that contract. A player shouldn't be comparing his salary to others, given that newer contracts are ALWAYS going up. So the highest paid CB in 2021, even if he is the best player, most likely won't be the highest paid in 2023, as the next "best" CB in the league is going to use the previous best players contract as his baseline.

There is no strawman. You are using that word for no reason.

Again, I don't agree with you. A player should be doing what they can to maximize their income. There is no fraud, that is silly. That is more of a strawman argument.

X had a year where he was 3rd in the league in MVP votes and is 2nd on the team in salary. He has every right to be upset with his contract.

Players 100% should be comparing their salaries. That is how the world works. They should do their best to get paid their worth. As the team should do their best to minimize their salaries.

I don't understand why people want to paint X as the villian or less of a man because he wants to renegotiate his contract when he has some leverage.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

There is no strawman. You are using that word for no reason.

Again, I don't agree with you. A player should be doing what they can to maximize their income. There is no fraud, that is silly. That is more of a strawman argument.

X had a year where he was 3rd in the league in MVP votes and is 2nd on the team in salary. He has every right to be upset with his contract.

Players 100% should be comparing their salaries. That is how the world works. They should do their best to get paid their worth. As the team should do their best to minimize their salaries.

I don't understand why people want to paint X as the villian or less of a man because he wants to renegotiate his contract when he has some leverage.

Having every right to be upset about his contract, isn't founded in facts. For one, he signed his contract as the #1 paid CB in the league when he signed it. There was no clause saying his pay would be adjusted every season to ensure he stays the #1 paid CB. If you total his production since signing the contract, he's nowhere NEAR the neighborhood of the #1 CB in the league.

One great season, when he has only 65% availability since signing his current contract, isn't leverage IMO. If he decided to play 2021 and did just as good, then I'd say he has cause, because he'd at least show some continuity. My opinion, of course. The only continuity he's shown in his time in Miami is the desire to stick it to the team.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

There is no strawman. You are using that word for no reason.

Again, I don't agree with you. A player should be doing what they can to maximize their income. There is no fraud, that is silly. That is more of a strawman argument.

X had a year where he was 3rd in the league in MVP votes and is 2nd on the team in salary. He has every right to be upset with his contract.

Players 100% should be comparing their salaries. That is how the world works. They should do their best to get paid their worth. As the team should do their best to minimize their salaries.

I don't understand why people want to paint X as the villian or less of a man because he wants to renegotiate his contract when he has some leverage.

I don't look at coercion or holding out as "leverage." I'm also not painting X as a villain. It's more commentary on our society.

It is a strawman, because you're arguing an idea, and not the reality. Your argument doesn't address the actual situation, other than "owners bad, players good."

"PhinFan1968 wrote:

Having every right to be upset about his contract, isn't founded in facts. For one, he signed his contract as the #1 paid CB in the league when he signed it. There was no clause saying his pay would be adjusted every season to ensure he stays the #1 paid CB. If you total his production since signing the contract, he's nowhere NEAR the neighborhood of the #1 CB in the league.

One great season, when he has only 65% availability since signing his current contract, isn't leverage IMO. If he decided to play 2021 and did just as good, then I'd say he has cause, because he'd at least show some continuity. My opinion, of course. The only continuity he's shown in his time in Miami is the desire to stick it to the team.

And he has the right to hold out and try to get more.

"resnor wrote:

I don't look at coercion or holding out as "leverage." I'm also not painting X as a villain. It's more commentary on our society.

It is a strawman, because you're arguing an idea, and not the reality. Your argument doesn't address the actual situation, other than "owners bad, players good."

I am arguing the reality and the situation. I am not saying, "contracts should be set in stone" or "I signed my name I have to honor it."

My argument represents the actual reality of the situation. X should go for the best contract and get more if he can. He shouldn't just say, "I signed my name and that should be the end of it."

That is not how the world works.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

And he has the right to hold out and try to get more.

Certainly does. And the team has the right to let him ride the couch, losing money, paying back bonuses, etc.

"PhinFan1968 wrote:

Certainly does. And the team has the right to let him ride the couch, losing money, paying back bonuses, etc.

Yup. They do.

I am hoping they can find a common ground. I think Miami is better with X.

The phins have to play hard ball here and if he sits he sits.If they redo his contract then the next player will do the same thing and then it will never stop.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Yup. They do.

I am hoping they can find a common ground. I think Miami is better with X.

I think they're better with a chip-on-his-shoulder X...we may get lucky to see more evidence of it in 2021.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Yup. They do.

I am hoping they can find a common ground. I think Miami is better with X.

He's so worth the money. And Flores knows it more than anyone (Revis).

"pumpdogs wrote:

The phins have to play hard ball here and if he sits he sits.If they redo his contract then the next player will do the same thing and then it will never stop.

Only if they're as good as X, and if they are....

"Two Tacos wrote:

Only if they're as good as X, and if they are....

So what if Baker has 10 sacks this year and has a career year.You don't think he will want to redo his contract like howard?

"pumpdogs wrote:

So what if Baker has 10 sacks this year and has a career year.You don't think he will want to redo his contract like howard?

10 sacks and 10 ints are not the same. If Baker is first team all pro and arguably the best LB in the NFL, he still won't have the leverage that X does as CB > LB. Maybe, if he led the NFL in sacks too. If that happens, then yes he could probably get more $.

"Cashvillesent wrote:

Most important positions in the NFL
QB
LT
CB.

Absolutely. But that's a helluva lot of loot for one position. Since we have rookies on OL and with Tua, we have a three-year window to build a winner. Having two max CBs might diminish our ability to do it. Again: I support X and any player who uses his leverage. But he's maneuvering himself out of town, even if that's not his intent.

"pumpdogs wrote:

So what if Baker has 10 sacks this year and has a career year.You don't think he will want to redo his contract like howard?

If he does, he does. He'll either get it or suffer the consequences of trying.

It's interesting that you didn't ask what happens if Baker rips an Achilles tendon while working out before training camp. Will the team honor his deal the way the Broncos did with JaJuan James?

"KeyFin wrote:

I don't know, people didn't throw towards him very often last year...and a few of those picks were jumping someone else's route. He just makes the most of limited opportunities and having Jones out there increases his chances. I think he could have 10 more picks next season, especially if the offense is generating points and opposing teams have to become pass-heavy to compete.

This team is SOOO CLOSE to being a contender and Howard is a huge piece of that. I hope they can come together on terms without being outrageous (for the exact reason you said). And I can't help but wonder how much of this is his agent trying to placate him; I hope he's actually talking to the team and not working off bad advice.

If you watch that video, he said that he was going to make the team pay for drafting Noah in the first round and signing Byron to a huge deal. This isn't about money, it's about perceived disrespect. I hope he's with us for years but he's butt-hurt and I wouldn't expect him to be reasonable. If Igbenoghene takes the leap and we have X and Jones, we'll have a true shutdown secondary, even with an unsettled safety situation. But we know Flo wants guys who think about team before everything. I wouldn't be surprised if he's already moved on.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

If you watch that video, he said that he was going to make the team pay for drafting Noah in the first round and signing Byron to a huge deal. This isn't about money, it's about perceived disrespect.

The way I heard it, the phrase "make 'em pay" wasn't meant in a malicious way but rather to mean, 'make them look foolish for not relying on me and me alone.'

In fact, before saying that X described how he understood precisely why the team went out and acquired other corners describing them as upgrades in "reliability."

What does come across in X's interview there is that he's self-reliant. The phrase "When they're trying to replace you, and get younger...you've got to stick to your plan, what you believe in and count on yourself."

To me, that last quote says everything.

It signals that X understands how the NFL is a business and how he's an aging veteran with the clock ticking. So it doesn't surprise me at all that he's out to get every last penny he can squeeze out of the team. After describing his surgery as "major" I would assume he's thinking that any further injury could easily be a career ender. Working under that assumption, I'm sure he wants as much guaranteed money as possible.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

The way I heard it, the phrase "make 'em pay" wasn't meant in a malicious way but rather to mean, 'make them look foolish for not relying on me and me alone.'

In fact, before saying that X described how he understood precisely why the team went out and acquired other corners describing them as upgrades in "reliability."

What does come across in X's interview there is that he's self-reliant. The phrase "When they're trying to replace you, and get younger...you've got to stick to your plan, what you believe in and count on yourself."

To me, that last quote says everything.

It signals that X understands how the NFL is a business and how he's an aging veteran with the clock ticking. So it doesn't surprise me at all that he's out to get every last penny he can squeeze out of the team. After describing his surgery as "major" I would assume he's thinking that any further injury could easily be a career ender. Working under that assumption, I'm sure he wants as much guaranteed money as possible.

You may well be right. Personally, the Flores/Grier regime is among the most business-first and least sentimental regimes in today's game, so I heard his statement to mean that he's going to treat his future the same way. Especially being aware that he had an objectively great performance last season and that if he falls short in 2021, they're coming for his loot.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

You may well be right. Personally, the Flores/Grier regime is among the most business-first and least sentimental regimes in today's game, so I heard his statement to mean that he's going to treat his future the same way. Especially being aware that he had an objectively great performance last season and that if he falls short in 2021, they're coming for his loot.

If you think about it, that's so much pressure to perform this season while also knowing most QB's will not throw your way at all if they can help it. Top shutdown corners have it especially tough to prove value because their chances are so limited to make plays. To me, that's why Jones was a must-have to balance the field...Howard should see him as a blessing since that's the only way he gets more opportunity to have passes coming his way.

Of course, that plays in Jones favor as well having X on the field...just a strange dynamic since the QB's game is "keep-away" for both of them.

"KeyFin wrote:

If you think about it, that's so much pressure to perform this season while also knowing most QB's will not throw your way at all if they can help it. Top shutdown corners have it especially tough to prove value because their chances are so limited to make plays. To me, that's why Jones was a must-have to balance the field...Howard should see him as a blessing since that's the only way he gets more opportunity to have passes coming his way.

Of course, that plays in Jones favor as well having X on the field...just a strange dynamic since the QB's game is "keep-away" for both of them.

Thought for a minute that we'd have a tandem to rival Surtain and Madison. Looks like that's not going to be the case.