How much of a Diva was Landry?

"jw3102 wrote:

Funny how all of a sudden the best WR the Dolphins have had in two decades is now seen as a player the Dolphins will be better off with him no longer on the team.

Tannehill and Gase have zero excuses this coming season. Either the Dolphins make the playoffs with these players Gase wanted and his chosen QB or else we should see a new QB and and a new HC in 2019.

For me it’s about cost and whether what he brought to the table and team is worth it...

I thought 12 mill a year was really fair.

We don't know exactly what happened behind the scenes, but if Landry wasn't putting in effort to study the playbook and whatnot, he was causing more harm than good.

He was a guy the young players looked up to.

If the kind of example he was setting was that you didn't have to put in the effort off the field to be successful, he was damaging the culture in the locker room and had to go, simple as that.

"djphinfan wrote:

For me it’s about cost and whether what he brought to the table and team is worth it...

I thought 12 mill a year was really fair.

I think that 12 is probably high, actually. Doug Baldwin is probably Landry's best comp, though he's a better player IMO. His cap hit is between 11-13m per season on his new deal.

I would also dispute the notion that Landry is the Fins best WR of the past two decades. He caught the most passes, sure, but he didn't do a whole lot with many of them. Chris Chambers was much more physically gifted, and on run oriented teams he managed to have several seasons that were better than Landry's in most ways beyond raw catches. In his brief time with the team, Brandon Marshall was also similar in that way.

Its my firm belief that freeing the team of his influence will free up the rest of the offense to step up and take things to the next level without him.

Chambers ended up being nothing more than a tease.

Has been a top 5 player on the team for the last 4 years. Not worth 15/year

"Hoops wrote:

Chambers ended up being nothing more than a tease.

Due to the crap we had at qb and coach.

"Hoops wrote:

I didn't see evidence of this route tree thing. what I saw was a qb with horrid placement and unwilling to stand in to make plays forcing the play callers and the route depths hands primarily. in terms of replacing landry best way to do it with so much scheme driven production level skill talent outside of dvp (who is the one legit top shelf skill talent this team has) is the fast tempo. maybe gesicki becomes that level talent but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

the rbs provided they can catch the ball are a dime a dozen in this scheme.

I’m not a film expert, others are much better at it than me. However, the routes Landry ran in 2017, were to my eye the same as he ran in 2016.
Stills and Parker were running routes that required them to vary their speed, and sell fakes to the DBs, Landry wasn’t doing that. Because most of Landry’s routes were close the LOS he didn’t appear to be running option routes.
Others have commented that his routes weren’t very crisp or precise (I can’t personally tell). Which in modern timing based offenses means you can’t rely on him to be where he should be on deeper routes, and that’s before you look at speed/separation concerns.

So even discounting for Cutler I can see why the Dolphins weren’t prepared to pay as much for Landry as Landry thought he should be paid.

A selfish WR who wants the ball!?!?

Man those guys are unheard of in this league..

"djphinfan wrote:

whoa, thats some tough fandom right there..

not you, but I think why we fall for his is because he's fearless and shows up in clutch moments, which makes us look the other way when it comes to weaknesses, we feel like we have to have that confidence and swagger on the team, listen I want Javis Landry to be a dolphin, but when looking at the big picture when it came to contract demands he imo has an over inflated opinion of his game.

he's a very talented player but he is very slow as well.

If Landry had an average WR # of catches last year, he would have produced around 450 yards with 4 TDs. We went to him a lot more than we should have, but saying he's a great receiver is a huge stretch. When you're #1 league wide in catches but not in the top 10 for yards, first downs, third down conversions or TD's, that's a massive red flag waving for everyone to see.

Cleveland missed it so good for Landry- he got his payday. And I'm sure he will bring just as much heart to their squad doing everything he can to make them successful. But he's just not that talented folks- his numbers CLEARLY prove that without even looking at all the dumb penalties and outbursts. He's an average NFL receiver that's slow with great hands and gives 100% effort. At the end of the day though, he's still an average NFL slot receiver.

Cutler sucked.

But some folks are overusing that as en excuse for every single flaw this team had.

We had the 29th ranked rushing offense and gave up 25ppg while playing the Jets and Bills 4x.

We were not good.

"KeyFin wrote:

Cleveland missed it so good for Landry- he got his payday. And I'm sure he will bring just as much heart to their squad doing everything he can to make them successful. But he's just not that talented folks- his numbers CLEARLY prove that without even looking at all the dumb penalties and outbursts. He's an average NFL receiver that's slow with great hands and gives 100% effort. At the end of the day though, he's still an average NFL slot receiver.

Ummm I would say he’ll do everything to make himself successful, and if that contributes to team success that’s a side effect. Apart from that I agree with what you said. Although also he is an above average slot receiver, quite possibly one of the best.

"jw3102 wrote:

Funny how all of a sudden the best WR the Dolphins have had in two decades is now seen as a player the Dolphins will be better off with him no longer on the team.

Tannehill and Gase have zero excuses this coming season. Either the Dolphins make the playoffs with these players Gase wanted and his chosen QB or else we should see a new QB and and a new HC in 2019.

We could say the same about some Dolphins fans.

"Pauly wrote:

I’m not a film expert, others are much better at it than me. However, the routes Landry ran in 2017, were to my eye the same as he ran in 2016.
Stills and Parker were running routes that required them to vary their speed, and sell fakes to the DBs, Landry wasn’t doing that. Because most of Landry’s routes were close the LOS he didn’t appear to be running option routes.
Others have commented that his routes weren’t very crisp or precise (I can’t personally tell). Which in modern timing based offenses means you can’t rely on him to be where he should be on deeper routes, and that’s before you look at speed/separation concerns.

So even discounting for Cutler I can see why the Dolphins weren’t prepared to pay as much for Landry as Landry thought he should be paid.

I think it had more to do with poor ball placement for max rac and ,and this ones a biggy, the fact that pa intermediate and vertical shots were completely off the table with cutler.

I also think miami resorted to getting the ball into Landry’s hands any way possible cause of once again qb execution forcing gase’s hand. That’s what the tape told me all along. As for lining up wrong with Landry and the media running with that I only saw that maybe twice all season and it was quickly corrected one time and we burned a timeout another. One time he lined up on the wrong side of the formation. It happens.

This is a qb problem primary. The execution was not there.

In terms of Landry’s market being in line with Doug Baldwin Baldwin signed his deal what 2 years ago in a different market. Having to pay juice had he hit free agency top 5 money was always gonna be on the table. He had too much production for anything else and you see what Cleveland did at north of $15 mil per.

So while I think the value to Miami may have been the $12 mil area the market wasn’t in line with that. And let’s also remember the guy played out his entire contract never once complained to the media or held out and fulfilled the terms of his contract. Hell it was a 4 year bargain for Miami. Never ever missed a game as I can recall.

I wish him the best and for our sake I hope someone steps up on 3rd down cause we used him on a ton of primary sticks concepts

"jw3102 wrote:

Funny how all of a sudden the best WR the Dolphins have had in two decades is now seen as a player the Dolphins will be better off with him no longer on the team.

Tannehill and Gase have zero excuses this coming season. Either the Dolphins make the playoffs with these players Gase wanted and his chosen QB or else we should see a new QB and and a new HC in 2019.

It's not all of a sudden if you check my posts the last few years I was never on the Landry train. Perhaps I was bitter that we passed on Allen Robinson (I believe we traded down, Robinson was still there, and we traded down again ... or maybe we just traded down once) but we spent a #2 on a physically limited player. People said we were getting Anquan Boldin or Hines Ward but I never saw it. Those dudes trucked people while catching passes. Landry really only does so when they're not looking (blocks).

Don't get me wrong, Landry was a good WR. But the fact he was our #1 WR didn't speak well for our corps.

"Hoops wrote:

I think it had more to do with poor ball placement for max rac and ,and this ones a biggy, the fact that pa intermediate and vertical shots were completely off the table with cutler.

I also think miami resorted to getting the ball into Landry’s hands any way possible cause of once again qb execution forcing gase’s hand. That’s what the tape told me all along. As for lining up wrong with Landry and the media running with that I only saw that maybe twice all season and it was quickly corrected one time and we burned a timeout another. One time he lined up on the wrong side of the formation. It happens.

This is a qb problem primary. The execution was not there.

In terms of Landry’s market being in line with Doug Baldwin Baldwin signed his deal what 2 years ago in a different market. Having to pay juice had he hit free agency top 5 money was always gonna be on the table. He had too much production for anything else and you see what Cleveland did at north of $15 mil per.

So while I think the value to Miami may have been the $12 mil area the market wasn’t in line with that. And let’s also remember the guy played out his entire contract never once complained to the media or held out and fulfilled the terms of his contract. Hell it was a 4 year bargain for Miami. Never ever missed a game as I can recall.

I wish him the best and for our sake I hope someone steps up on 3rd down cause we used him on a ton of primary sticks concepts

Because the Browns have always made smart decisions. Landry isn't 3/4 the WR Baldwin is. According to a few who watch a lot of film claim he was schemed open way more than other WRs.

How much of a Diva was Landry?

Jarvis=not so much, 6 outta 10 maybe

Dirty?=1000 outta 10

"djphinfan wrote:

His yards per catch relative to targets is really a damning stat, maybe CBrad or Pauly could get in on that stat and how bizarre of a stat it is for someone making 15 mill a year and who calls himself the best receiver in football.

I’m not all that big on using salary for comparisons for a number of reasons.
1) Bad teams have to overpay for talent
2) Players discount their salary to play on teams which they think have a good chance of winning a SB.
3) The salary cap keeps ratcheting up on an almost annual basis.
4) Prices can be inflated/deflated due to the supply/demand situation of any given year’s FA market.
5) Contract extensions are usually at lower tha open market prices due to players discounting their salary for lower risk.
6) real money -v- imaginary money that never actually gets paid on a contract.
7) guarnteed money -v- incentive payments
8) How many teams are active bidders, and what is their salary cap situation

What I will say is simply that Landry’s production has never been simply good. It has always been “good, but ...”. So for me the for a good WR 15 mil is fair, but for a “good but ...” player my pain threshold is about 12 mil per year. There isn’t any real science to that because you can’t make real apples to apples comparisons.

The thing that most fans don't get about Landry is that defenses would give him those 2 yard screen passes all freaking day long. On his best plays, he would escape multiple tackles and crank out 40 yards. On his worst catches, he'd go down at contact for a 2-5 yard gain. What's missing from this equation is that home run threat we have with Stills, Parker, Grant, Drake and just about everyone else on the roster that's paid to catch the ball (except the blocking TE's).

Defenses simply weren't going to double Landry because he wasn't going to take one step and torch you for 70 yards.

Now, Gase knew this...and with a struggling line and Jay Cutler at the helm, it made complete sense to take the freebie play that the defense will always give you and hope that Landry broke a few tackles. It was an easy play for them and the most favorable outcome, even when Landry did get the first down. In other words, Landry catching the ball was safe.

Yet when you move Grant to the slot, that freebie catch and run isn't free anymore....Grant is going to be checked at the LOS because he's an actual threat.

So let's be realistic here- is it an accomplishment catching 104 passes that the defense WANTED YOU TO CATCH? Personally, I think it was a big reason we lost 11 games....we would have been a hell of a lot more lethal if those passes were split between Grant and Drake on the exact same plays. That's nothing against Landry himself, but to me his biggest negotiating point was actually all smoke and mirrors. You can't call something an accomplishment when the other team is begging you to do it and intentionally leaving it wide open.

Bill belichick doubled Landry all the time. It’s all water under the bridge now. He’s gone in fact both physical tone setters in the offense have exited stage left in the last year. Both for late 4th round pick returns.

Has the feel of a very finesse outfit now on o. Which I think may be fine considering the tempo of play.

Interesting to see Landry slamming Tannehill and the Dolphins now....

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000936293/article/jarvis-landry-browns-qbs-a-lot-better-than-miamis

"btfu149 wrote:

Interesting to see Landry slamming Tannehill and the Dolphins now....

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000936293/article/jarvis-landry-browns-qbs-a-lot-better-than-miamis

Seems to be the theme.

Forget what us fans bicker about, Ryan has certainly been a subtle punching bag for some departing player's and some other guy's in the league.

Can't control what people say, just gotta come out and have the best 2018 you can and shut them up.

But make no mistake, he NEEDS to pick up where he left off before he got hurt. We cant have 2015 kind of play out of him or he has to go.

Lost a lot of respect for Landry today. Even if you felt this way take a higher ground/keep your mouth shut.

Lets look at the performance of receivers who left Miami and see how they went without RT.

Mike Wallace.
2 years in Miami: 140 catches, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs, 56.0 yards per game
2 years in Baltimore: 124 catches, 14.2 ypc, 8 TDs, 56.9 yards per game.

Charles Clay.
3 years in Miami with RT: 146 catches, 11.0 ypc, 11 TDs 38 yards per game
3 years in Buffalo with Tyrod: 157 catches, 10.4 ypc, 9 TDs! 40.0 yards per game

Rishard Mathews. For whatever reason he was in Philbin’s doghouse and was criminally underused so his volume in Tennessee is much higher than Miami. If we just look at his final year in Miami as an indicator of how he should have been used.
2015 in Miami 43 catches, 15.4 ypc, 4 TDs and 60.2 yards per game
Average of his 2 seasons in TEN: 59 catches, 14.7 ypc, 6.5 TDs, 58 yards per game.

Brian Hartline and Davon Bess: Took their careers to their grave with a final year in Cleveland.

There is no evidence that RT17 is holding back his receivers. The only receiver whose production has jumped after leaving Miami is Rishard Mathews, and that is based on increased volume because their coaches are not as clueless as Philbin. Charles Clay was slightly more efficient with RT17. Mike Wallace had a jump in ypc, but total production of yardage was about the same, but his TD rate more or less halved.

If Landry thinks his production is going to jump up now he has escaped Tannehill, history has a different opinion.

"btfu149 wrote:

Interesting to see Landry slamming Tannehill and the Dolphins now....

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000936293/article/jarvis-landry-browns-qbs-a-lot-better-than-miamis

I'm really not that surprised, he's always been about himself more than anything. So hopefully him and Tyrod have magical chemistry so they can celebrate each other in their 3-13 season next year. It's really a perfect fit for Landry if you think about it- huge money, crap team, etc.

Nice discussion! I could be wrong, and I know it seems like it now, but I don't think Gase jettisoned Landry because of his attitude. I think we just didn't want to pay him so much money. I believe Gase would have continued to work with him even though he can be a complete pain in the backside sometimes. Now that he is gone, and Gase has guys with a great attitude ( at the moment) it seems like a no-brainer, but at the time I don't think they thought like that. Speed or no, Landry is a heck of a WR. Personally, I liked Landry as a fin, but now that he is gone, I like the guys we have now.
As for his public comments, I think guys talk shit about other players and their old teams all the time off-the-record, so it is probably no surprise to anyone in our organization that Landry feels the way he does. They have probably heard it before. Landry just makes himself look bad by running his mouth publically. The dude was targeted a million times and he had a ton of catches, yet he still implies Gase didn't use him correctly?