of course one can be gay and be a christian. we are all sinners

 

Why haven't I seen things about the church opposing atheists getting married?

Does the news not report that (because that would indeed make sense if that is the case)?

 

Have to say, its greatly re-freshing to hear a person with a strong belief in Christianity say that. That type of attitude has sadly been lost on many Christians, but its good to hear that some dont adopt a narrow minded attitude towards homosexuals, they may not share the same values but they should not be condemned either.

Something worth mentioning also is that, according to the Bible and the teachings of Jesus is that sex is A) for procreation and B) a gift for married couples and a sign of love between a man and a women. So from what I have been lead to believe is that if a couple do not tick those two boxes, but yet act out on their desires they are commiting a sin. So basically sex before marriage is as great a sin as homosexuality. Unfortunetly I do not know my Bible as well as I could but I'm sure Ohio or someone else with a good command of scripture could rattle off verses from Genesis that outline Gods intention for man and woman regarding sexual ehtics and behaviour.

For homosexuals that means a life of celibacy, as it goes against Gods plan for humans according to the Bible. If they do not act out on their urges then they do not commit a sin. That unfortunetly has to be the way. Its the same for a straight person. If they do not get married then they must remain celibate until they do.

 

I disagree with your premise Ohiophin, when a council of men decided to overthrow any sense of what "Hath God said..." then Christianity is reduced to opinion only, the "next" council can then overturn the previous one and so on and so forth and thusly reduce any idea of the possibility of a separation from God via one's own actions.

Then such a sanction is of no effect, if there is no impetus to change the behaviour, what would it matter if the behavour occurs or not? What is being proposed is a terrible vista of action=guilt=repentence=start cycle over again instead of renewed mind and spirit a existence ridden with guilt seems preferable?

As for "can a homosexual be a Christian"?

Scripture would say "no", personally, and I'm thankful for it, we are not to judge another's Salvation, that is between the individual and the Lord, actions do speak, but we look at things through human eyes, not through the Lord's eyes, he knows hearts far better then "we" ever could so perhaps the Lord will say "yes", that is my hope anyway.

As for Civil Unions, I can't support them from a Christian worldview as that is a sort of endorsement of behaviour, that said, Caeser will do what Caeser will do, "our" battle as it were is with powers and principalities and not with the local courthouse clerk or state legislature.

 

I want to know exactly how being gay is bad for the community or hurts the community in any way....thats my question for this thread.

Isn't gluttony a sin? How come you dont fight to limit the amount of chocolate bars a person can buy? Why is being gay such a bad sin you are willing to fight against it, but not others?

 

:lol: :sidelol:

Bet it was totally worth it though dude!!!

 

Once again, Pagan raises the bar on civil discourse. :up:

I know what I believe on gay marriage, but I wish the church would spend more time bringing people to Christ and less time convicting of sin: that's the Holy Spirit's job.

 

What part of the post?

Are we to be renewed day by day in increasing closeness with God, or is there is no effect in our Faith it being merely ritual and tradition?

Why ask a question then answer it for oneself? If one relies on Romans, then why not ALL of Romans and not just the shiney happy predesitinated portion while not taking into consideration the less then PC portions?

Narrow is the gate Ohiophin.

Justice or Obedience? Are the two separate concepts, hostile to one another?

Or does Justice require Obedience first?

If I had my way, a Eusebian Universalism would be outstanding, alas, it's not so Ohiophin and that being the case, I must speak.

 

No worries Ohiophinphan.

 

christians are against gay marriage b/c they don't want God's wrath to hit the nation they live in. There's several biblical stories about God's wrath hitting an entire group of people due to sin. The wages of sin is death (physically and spiritually) God would be justified in destroying all of us due to sin, the only thing that's stopping him from doing that is his mercy. But there's plenty of reasons for God to judge this country. Gay marriage might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

I'm sorry for being so ignorant about this, but does the bible say anything about divorce? Like is divorce a sin, or not allowed? (because of the whole "til death do you part" thing)

Because I would think that'd be a far bigger straw than gay marriage if divorce is indeed a sin or whatever.

 

thanks for picking a complicated subject.

The bible says that God hates divorce.(Malachi 2:16)
It also says, what God has joined together, let man not seperate.
It also says (Matthew 19:9) Jesus said, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." What most people don't know is that the the bible uses different words in greek and hebrew but when its translated into english it only uses one word...divorce.
in one instance the bible uses the word divorce meaning separation.
In another instance the bible uses the word divorce meaning a separation with papers (legally binding divorce). in the verse that says "if a man or woman divorces their spouse and remarries another person, they have committed adultery", it's using the word meaning "separates". In other words its saying if a man or woman separates with their spouse and then marries someone else, they've committed adultery b/c they're still married to the person they seperated with. Because it wasn't a legal divorce with papers!

it should also be noted that the "sexual immorality" in this verse....
(Matthew 19:9) Jesus said, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." ..... is the greek word pornea which means a long list of things that have to do with marrital unfaithfulness. there's no mistake that the root word for the greek word is the word porn aka pornography. Jesus gives this "sexual immorality/pornea" as a reason for divorce being permissable.

ICorinthians 7:15 also gives another reason for divorce. It talks about trying to save a marriage if possible, but it says .."But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace."

The bible states that God had a divorce (with papers) with Isreal. you can find references to this in jer 3:8 Isiah 50:1 and Hosea 2:2. Of course God did this under the principle found in I Cor 7:15 and Matthew 19:9. Isreal was unfaithul to God and Isreal (the unbeliever) left God, there for God divorced Isreal with papers (legally binding divorce). Then God made himself available to anyone, that's why salvation is available to anyone.


So to sum it all up. God doesn't like divorce. He doesn't want it to happen, he wants us to work it out if at all possible, but he does give us a few reasons where divorce is permissable. But i would say if you have a divorce for any reason other than the exceptions that God gives us, than in that case divorce is a sin. But it's also not a sin if you try to work it out but your spouse wants to leave anyway and/or if your spouse is unfaithful or commits sexual immorality.


i hope i didn't confuse you. feel free to ask questions.

 

Why isn't heterosexuality one of the 10 Commandments?

 

Its an interesting, yet very confusing issue. You take opposing views for example. The Protestan Church deem divorce as being tragic but permissable. Yet the Catholic Church condemn it out-right. So its pretty much down to interpretation of the Bible.

You pretty much sum it up with the answer you gave, that there is hugely conflicting verses in the Bible about divorce. This for me is a reason why I have very little faith in Sacred Scripture. Its amazing how different the NT accounts dealing with divorce are. Heres an example.

Matthew 5:31-32:
"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

Yet another account of the Sermon on the Mount and based on the same conversation states..........

Mark 10:2-12:
"And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him...And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."

Its very clear to me that one of these authors has changed what Jesus actually said to suit his beliefs. For me that is a very scary prospect that we could be adopting what we think are the words of Jesus, yet are the views of someone else.

 

Because it's covered under "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

 

Thanks for that.

I think the one thing that is clear is that the bible we see was subject to the interpretations of previous authors and translators. And that the Roman Catholic church and other denominations have further made their own interpretations, many arriving at different conclusions.

Obviously, people and churches can have their own opinions, but the claim that anything is absolutely God's law is questionable at best.

 

I thought adultery was cheating on a spouse. Is that the modern definition, while there was an older meaning?

 

I thought it was sex outside of marriage.

 

The Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh or Old Testament) prohibits adultery in the seventh of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:14). It should be noted though that during biblical times marriage was seen as a property transaction and the definition of adultery was quite narrow. During biblical times adultery was defined as a married woman having sex with someone other than her husband. The definition did not, however, forbid a married man from having sex with a woman other than his wife provided she was not married to someone else. (Leviticus 20:10 and Deuteronomy 22:22).

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery[/ame]

There have been many other interpretations both legal and cultural throughout history. It just goes back to the point that any of these absolute positions are really just individual interpretations and opinions.

 

In the NIV translation this verse is confusing b/c it uses the same word divorce, but with different meanings.

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[a] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

The first time the word divorce appears it means "put away" (seperated) and certificated of divorce (legal divorce) but the second time the word divorce appears it only means "put away" (seperated).

So Jesus is just saying if you and your wife get seperated and you marry someone else, you've committed adultery b/c you're really still married to the person you seperated with b/c it wasn't a legal divorce with papers.

But back to your point about the 2 verses sounding different, i see them as the same thing. one of the verses throws in an explanation for which word "divorce" was being used.....with papers. I believe matthew was written to the jews thats why it says it has been said that if you have a divorce you must give a wriiten document for the divorce b/c that was the law given to them by moses. the other scripture from mark leaves that out b/c his audience doesn't know the law of moses. i believe mark was writting to the gentiles. the gentiles had a common practice of "putting away" thier spouse without papers.

the 2 verses were on 2 different occassions. the one in matthew was a teaching of jesus' from the sermon on the mount. the one from mark was when jesus was being questioned by the pharisee's then later the dicsciples asked him questions about the same thing. the pharisee's were trying to trap him by saying is it lawful for a man to divorce "put away" his wife. jesus answered by telling them the law of moses which was to "put away" and have papers (divorce). later on jesus was explaining this to the disciples by going further into detail about if you just divorce "put away" your wife, you're really still married to her, therefor if you marry someone else you're committing adultery.

 

so if i'm reading this correctly if you marry someone who has been divorced that's commiting adultery?

also; i'm going to hell.

 

i don't know. some might say that he covers that in forbidding idolatry b/c romans 1 talks about the root of homosexuality being idolatry.

but one things for sure, God's against it in the old testament and the new testament. he says its an abomination.

maybe that wasn't a problem at the time and he never addressed it until it was a problem. just like we create new laws anytime someone does something wrong that the law doesn't cover. it's clear from the beggining (genesis) that God intended man to be with a woman. romans 1 also points out that God makes his view on this subject clear through creation. have you seen any gay animals? lol. well some animals will hump anything. lol

 

that's why the Holy Spirit is my teacher! you can burn all the bibles in the world and the Holy Spirit will end up teaching me everything in the Bible with the true intent that it was written if i allow Him to.

 

i would have to bring out my study books to give you the greek/hebrew meaning of the word adultery in whatever verse we want to discuss with that word in it.

One things for sure, jesus always took things to the next level. he's said things like (paraphrased)"you've heard it said, don't commit adultery. But i tell you that anyone who has lusted after another woman has committed adultery in his heart."

 

oh damn.

i'm definitely going to hell.