Instead of regurgitating the typical fan opinion that the Dolphins need "a #1" wide receiver, I thought we should have a discussion on the actual qualities the Dolphins are missing in their wide receiver corps currently. Chris made a point recently either here or on twitter that Miami is really missing two aspects that the receivers on the team currently do not bring to the table. One, they do not have anyone on the team that has the ability to take the top off the defense and force defenses into soft coverages. Along with that goes the fact that they also don't have anyone that can catch a short pass and make it a long gainer. The other thing this team lacks in their wide receiver position is that physical presence that can use his body to shield the defender and make those tough catches when the field is shortened.
If you look at Green Bay's receiving corps, and I use them as an example because Joe Philbin was part of the staff that coached them, you see four guys that have gotten significant targets over the past two years: Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, James Jones, and Randall Cobb. Randall Cobb actually emerged this year to lead that team in total targets with around 98. Jordy Nelson was among the tops in the league at yards per target. Jenning had an injury prone season.
In that group, Jones is the physical presence, but Nelson has some of that physicality as well. Nelson and Jennings have the ability to make plays down the field. Cobb does as well, but he's more the guy that can take that short pass and run like a running back when he has the ball in his hands to create more yards. Overall, it's a nice mix, and Cobb may actually be making Jennings expendable this offseason.
In looking at Miami's corps, they have Brian Hartline and Davone Bess and not much else. Brian Hartline has good top end speed, but he is not a guy that can take the top off the defense. He can make a few plays, but he lacks the ability to run away from the defender. Davone Bess is very underrated by most Dolphins fans and can get some YAC yards in a short area when he's working in space. However, he is neither a physical presence nor a big play guy down the field. He's a guy who I think would have a monster year if he was playing in more three wide sets with two guys who are drawing the attention from him, similar to what New England does with Wes Welker, who went from a 1 TD guy in Miami's standard pro offense to a 100+ reception, 6 TD guy in New England's spread out offense.
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Marco, sports24/7, ajaffe9 and 5 others like this.
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Great idea to look at the unit, not just the individual, KB.
I think adding a Corderrelle Patterson would create that effect of a guy who can create long plays out of short receptions. A short big play threat who also gets deep and scares a safety.
Then adding Stedman Bailey takes the top off a defense, big time, and adds a physical aggression to the corps. He out muscles and out hustles DBs for contested catches.
Those two together, with Bess and Rashard would be pretty nice.
Use the FA money you save on Jennings and Hartline to bring in a TE like Keller to dominate the seam.
That's a corps that will help Tannehill and scare defenses from sideline to sideline and from the LOS to the end zone.gunn34 likes this. -
Myself, I wouldn't want to go into the season counting on two rookies to be able to be #1 and #2 receivers.
I would rather go
Veteran
Stedman/Patterson
Stedman/Patterson
Bess
Mathews
If this scenerio pays out, honestly my desire would be
Jennings
Hartline
Stedman
Patterson
MathewsLiferYank likes this. -
The Dolphins very much need to upgrade their pass catching options, and they need to provide for elements that they don't have currently on the roster. They need more threats, they need more players capable of "chunk" yardage, and they need to improve their red zone passing options.
I think people(not anyone specifically) are going a bit overboard on how severe or how important certain elements are. I think taking that to mean they need to choose between Hartline and Bess and need to get to four starting or near starting caliber receivers, or that they need Mike Wallace or a guy like that is a bit much. They don't need to bodily mimic the Packers. -
No way in hell Ireland spends the 12th pick, 42nd pick and big FA money on the WR position in one year.
But I agree with the sentiment that two rooks is risky.
Don't care though because of how great these rooks will be. -
He would drop some FA money with the dumping of Bess. Plus on year he did use two seconds and big FA money on one wide receiver.Bpk likes this.
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He is only effective in the slot. If moving towards a group where they can play any position, Bess is expendable due to his weakness outside. Especially since he ineffective on routes that are longer than 20 yards.
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I think you have to go after one of the big three, and spend a high resource on one in the draft..
You have to make sure you don't wind up trotting out the same unit as this year because of one injury to Jennings/etc, and only a player with a lot of talent (2nd round) is going to take reps away from hart and Bess.
Jennings...Hartline..Woods..Bess..Matthews...done.
What we need has been said...players that can make athletic movements to gain yac.. -
I still want to point out, we played the entire year with only 2 viable WRs and virtually no TE between the 20s since Fasano had to block so much.
Just a Greg Jennings and the ability to let our TE be a target would drastically improve our offense.skippysphins, gunn34 and Disgustipate like this. -
I half expect that they'll re-sign Hartline and wait until round 3 to draft Ryan Swope to address the position.
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I agree it would. I wouldn't mind improving it more.
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Most of his career he's play more split wide than in the slot, and this is the first year he's statistically been more productive on a per-snap basis doing so.
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Still is ineffective in a post, corner, sluggo, give and go, and many other routes. He is limiting split wide.
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I don't either. I am fine with
Jennings
Rookie
Bess
Hartline
Mathews/Fuller/or some other 2nd year receiver who shows the most promise -
So are many other wide receivers that are still considered beneficial to have on your team. The routes he's good at are generally short routes, but they aren't slot routes.
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My first option would be a guy with great hands. One that has a very low drop percentage. Then someone who can get YAC. Then a speedster who can make a catch. Having a tall man to lob passes to in the endzone would be an upgrade itself. An aggressive guy who has the strength to win that battle with a CB.
Would be really great to find all that in 1 or 2 guys. -
WR is a glaring need for sure, but if we let Jake Long walk I don't know how we don't draft his replacement at #12. The thought of a full season of Martin and Garner as our bookends makes me cringe just thinking about it.
Bpk likes this. -
So many resources have been spent on the OL that they simply cannot go that route again. Miami will likely take the Green Bay route to improving their pass blocking. Their answer to the OL troubles from a couple of years ago was to spread the field out. That's what Miami will likely do, so I do see them investing in wide receivers and flex tight ends that will allow them to play more 3 and 4 wide formations.
Jonathan Martin and Nate Garner handled themselves well when given the opportunity to play late in the year. Jonathan Martin may not have rated high according to PFF's stats on pressures and such, but Marshall Newhouse didn't rate high in 2011 and he was top 10 in 2012. Green Bay had faith in him, and that faith proved right. Personally, I feel Martin is a better fit at left than right tackle, and his ability to move and block at the second level gives the team something they didn't have with Jake Long.sports24/7 and Bpk like this. -
Past investments are irrelevant to me. We just drafted a franchise QB in '12 and I can't see trusting his blind side to anyone we currently have on our roster. I saw all 16 games this season and enough examples of Martin & Garner getting steam rolled to know they are not the answer. Maybe I am wrong about Martin's ability to progress at OT but nothing I saw in 2012 showed me otherwise. If Long walks and they don't replace him with a good free agent Tackle then you have to protect your investment via the draft in my opinion.
When I take into consideration that its questionable if there is a WR that is good value as a top 15 pick, then I just can't get behind them reaching for one of them at #12. I Like Patterson a lot, but he still feels like his value is in the 20-30 range right now. That may change over the next 3 months with the Combine and show case games. We have 5 picks in the top 3 rounds. No reason we can't take a Tackle at 12 and still invest the 4 other picks on WRs & TEs. Heck, we might do neither ... we could end up taking a CB or DE/OLB in the first round purely from a BPA point of view. -
Is this not a sunk cost fallacy, though? Past offensive line investments not panning out shouldn't affect otherwise rational decisions to do so in the future. There are certainly public relations issues towards spending picks there, but at a certain point those should be secondary- His job security is dependent on winning rather than making fans happy with sexy draft picks.Stitches likes this.
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The problem with drafting offensive linemen is that there are few blockers with outstanding traits that you don't really have around the league and not all positions are as important as the others along the line. Personnel men should be asking themselves what prospect X has that I can't find anywhere else in the draft. Does he have an exceptional combination of strength and mobility at a highly important position like Mike Pouncey at Center? If not, then why can't I find this three rounds later? So much of line play is brute strength, which is narrowed down to the ability to anchor on a consistent basis, and footwork; both of these things are able to be worked on in the weight room and out on the field and can be found elsewhere in the draft. Unless the blocker has an outstanding and uncommon trait, get one later.
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I would go with a vet, preferably Wallace or Jennings and draft Bailey or Hopkins in the 2nd. I think that those two along with Hartline, Bess, Matthews and Binns is a nice group to take into camp. The other key is the TE position. They may need to add both a vet and a high draft pick if Fasano walks. (Particularly if the Egnew reports are accurate).
Bpk and sports24/7 like this. -
I think all of that ties into the player's value as we were discussing. You can say that about a few positions ... if Player A has a certain set of outstanding traits then he is going to rate higher on your board. I just feel like LT is one of those positions you can't skimp on. If Joeckel falls in our laps (which I highly doubt) then they'd be crazy not to take him at 12 just because WR is a glaring need.
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I would think that once Bess gets back to being a #3 the better off we are. I doubt anyone would argue that.LiferYank likes this.
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I still don't feel as comfortable with Bess coming off the bench to give an outside receiver a break. He is really good in the slot, probably one of the best in the league. However he isn't one of the best on the edge. I would rather have him #4.
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Fair enough. I'm not sure why the number matters really as long as Bess is back to doing the things he does best.
Catching balls on third down and moving the sticks. Making people miss inside.Bpk likes this. -
I would be very happy with that. Seems like this draft is shaping up to have a very good TE class so we should be able to find a quality player in the first 3 rounds.Bpk likes this.
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Big part of me still wonders if we should sign a vet CB instead of WR, draft multiple WRs and let them grow with Tannehill
Bpk likes this. -
I just think it takes time for young CBs, even the ones that show promise, to actually start playing like a tenured veteran. In 2009 we started Vontae and Sean and everyone was positive they both showed a ton of promise and there were pundits talking about how they'll end up being one of the best CB tandems in football just like the old days with Madison and Surtain, etc. Yet they were terribly unproductive, allowing something like 2.0 yards per pass snap each which is awful for a corner.
I wonder what the prognosis is on Brent Grimes' Achilles, and what kind of contract he'll be forced to accept. That guy can play. Wouldn't mind Chris Houston either. -
The other side of the coin is bringing in an experienced vet like Jennings to provide immediate relief, aid Tanny's development, and to mentor the influx of young talent. Of course it would still involve drafting at least one but hopefully 2 decent receivers, one being an impact player. Do we not have enough room to sign Jennings, a TE, AND a corner? I'd let Hartline walk if it means the capability of adding a corner we want.Bpk likes this.
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I'd be down with this plan. You'll pay less for a decent CB free agent, and I believe they travel well to new teams.
The only issue is, I don;t think any receiver deserves to go at #12 overall.
But if we doubled up on Terrance Williams and Stedman Bailey in the second round.... that's pretty good.
And it lets us use the 12th overall to either take a stud who falls to us (preferable a pass rusher) or trade down for a late first and take Ansah or a TE plus scoop and extra second or just straight up trade that #12 pick for an NFL vet starter.
The flexibility we have this year is great.
We are actually in an EXCELLENT position to fill a lot of holes in one offseason.... if our evaluations don't miss as badly as they did on Egnew, and Pat Turner, Daniel Thomas, etc. at those offensive positions. -
No thanks on Grimes. he will almost certainly want more than Jennings, which partially negates the benefit, in my mind, of getting rook WRs but a vet CB. There is no way in hell he takes less than $8m a year, and I could see him asking for at least what his franchise tag pay was ($10.6 million, I believe). Also, from the fact that last year he fired the agent who was with him when Dmitroff signed him, and now has Dogra and Condon, and they turned down a $2.something mill offer the previous year.. I think this young man is determined to get a payday. A big one.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it. He probably does, in fact. But the kind of payday he wants is not appealing to me. -
Thinking more about CB.
Adam Jones, if you can stomach it, is available and brings decent ability and experience from Cinci.
Captain Munnerlyn, Chris Houston, Sheldon Brown.
There are some options, ranging from good starters to nickel/dime depth. -
Yes on Grimes. He can play and he's coming of that injury so he should be on our radar. Signing him and Jennings would be a slam dunk off-season.
C'mon Ireland don't screw this up. -
Could you trade down still get a good WR with your first pick and get good value and the end of first round beginning of the second with the pick you gained and grabbed a TE?
I'd rather sign a Jennings, keep Bess and Hartline draft a #1 with your first pick and upgrade the TE position opening up the middle of the field then draft 2 WR with high picks. -
If we resign Hartline and bring in Jennings I doubt they go WR early.
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