Need REAL Advice

"KeyFin wrote:

You know, I thought about military school when she was 12, 13 and 14- my wife talked me out of it every time though. My kid was in ROTC in high school though and wants to join the air force....only they won't take her because of her history of mental illness. She'd go in a heartbeat though and it would be the best possible thing for her.

That sucks. I really think people like that need to stay occupied with things important to them. Let them obsess over things that are productive and helpful rather then destructive. Man, i really dont know what you can do other then to simply build a plan around things she wants to achieve and cares about. Or if youve done that and she refuses to be productive...she gotta go.

Her friends are only seriously messed up people bc she feels a commonality with them and likely has a low self worth. Having a commonality with them and having a low self worth are likely not possible without having an understanding of her own existence. That would lead me to believe that she might know what's going on but is unwilling to work on herself (thanks to her mental health of course).

I would consult the therapists who've spent time with her and ask them what odds they'd put on a person like her ever leading a life that doesn't compromise the sanity of those around her. If their answers offer minimal optimism, then it might be wise to play the probability here (send her packing) and thus focus on the other daughter who does have a chance at a normal life rather than risk destroying your family over a glimmer of hope. It's not too late for your healthy daughter to become damaged by all of this, so spend as much time as possible loving, cherishing, and nurturing her.

This may qualify as an instance where you need to fight your instinct of parental obligation.... and fight those painful guilty feelings that accompany the thoughts of "abandoning a child". You and your wife can't let thoughts of "If we kick her out, what if such and such happens to her?" control your lives. Is your daughter more of a loner? Either way, she'll eventually probably end up becoming one as she gradually gives up on relationships.

IDK, maybe you can look at it this way: by allowing this to persist on, you're essentially acting as enablers, and thus preventing her from developing the mental coping skills required for her function in the real world, which also means preventing her from adapting to the real world...... b/c, in order for her to become happy in her own mind, it will most likely come as the result of adaptation rather than through change, as she figures out ways to fit the world to her rather than her to the world. As emotionally difficult as it is for you to deal with her in your household, it's probably equally difficult and incredibly stressful, if not traumatic, for her to live in a normal household as a mentally/emotionally unhealthy person who's being asked to conform. Being on her own, that burdening stress should diminish as she learns to adapt. It's possible that this adapting/coping process leaves her choosing a life or lifestyle that you don't approve of or necessarily want for her, but it might be one that's best for her overall state of mind if that makes sense. If she is able to adapt, it's important that you accept her for who she becomes and definitely not enter the divisive "pass judgment" mode bc she'll choose her own sanity over the stressors of conformity. As it stands, once she is able to adapt and achieve some level of mental homeostasis within her own world, she may feel that it's less stressful and emotionally easier to simply cut ties with her family (just something to be prepared for). Maybe you could do something like this- tell her that if she really wants to become a nurse that you'll let her stay there as long as she enrolls in school, keeps up her grades, and graduates. That way, if she does get kicked out of the house, it will be the result of her own actions, of which only she can be held accountable for. Better piece of mind on your part.

Your daughter sounds exactly like my ex wife down to the T by the way. She's in her 40's now, and nothing has or could change her, not even witnessing her teenage daughter flatline in the hospital before being revived (doctors didn't think she'd make it through the night). Not even the stark realization of the fragility of life smacking her in the face was able to wake her up and change her. She went so far as incorporating stage 3 breast cancer and all its trimmings into her manipulation repertoire (it was all a lie). She's a nurse too by the way. My ex would never seek therapy but I'm fairly certain that she's both BPD and sociopathic, and it sounds like your daughter may be comorbid as well, but I'm not a shrink. She'll most likely try to keep you and your wife roped in for as long as possible, using any means necessary, and you'll have difficulty discerning it b/c we as mentally healthy, responsible, empathy-feeling individuals simply can't fathom ourselves acting in such an intentionally deceitful, manipulative, destructive manner at the expense of others, let alone those close to us.

By the way, and sorry to bring this up, but have you looked into the avenue of getting her tubes tied? I fear her next step in this evolution may be to use a child to secure her current dependency status on you guys, especially if a deep fear of abandonment is festering (heck, the fear of abandonment itself may be a significant culprit in her desire to remain lazy and irresponsible). Rather than seeking behavioral change or a lifestyle change, she may feel it's easier to tether you to a grandchild. She'll promise that the baby will be good for her, but ultimately you'll end up becoming parents again and the child will likely represent a means of maintaining her lazy status quo (staying at home, no work, no school, etc).

Really feel bad about what your family is going through man. I know how it makes it a struggle to maintain your own sanity. If your situation is anything like mine- if change is what you and your wife absolutely desire, it will probably have to come from the two of you creating it yourselves, rather than relying on it to come from your daughter. Best of luck brother.
:bighug:

In case you haven't already done so, you need to sympathetically acknowledge to your daughter that she unfortunately drew the short end of the stick in life, through no fault of her own.

She may never have the stereotypic "normal" life, but hey, what's normal nowadays?

I was with a borderline personality disordered woman for close to 5 years. It was HELL after she stopped idealizing me.
The disorder is nearly impossible to fix as it is hard wired in to her brain. I would suggest forcing her to go a therapy called CBT. There is a strong possibility that she also has an eating disorder and /or was sexually abused by someone you probably know. I know this is difficult to hear, but borderline personality, while it may have some genetic roots, is typically the product of very traumatic events during childhood development.

You are basically in a no win situation and the condition gets worse over time, especially after she may seem to be on the up and up.. It's at that point that their self destructive behaviors really manifest themselves.

My advice is, get therapy for you and your wife, have her sent to therapy (even if it's inpatient) and get to the deep seated roots to her problems, which may include actions that you and you wife did towards her. . There may be events you never even knew happened. In the case of my ex, she was a little chubby when she was 5 years old and her mother devalued her, called her fat, and refused to let her eat cafeteria food like the rest of her friends. Unbeknownst to anyone other than me (after 4 years with me and 1 month of treatment for an eating disorder) she broke down and told me that her grandfather used to sexually molest her during the exact same time her mother was devaluing her. In her class of 10 women that had the same condition (eating disorders) every single one of them had traumatic events that they hid like sexual abuse or other horrific events.

After her breakthrough in which she finally felt good about herself she decided to go back to her insane ways, started cutting herself with glass shards and completely dissociated from life. Her pupils were constantly dilated. It was a personal version of hell.

In terms of how I got rid of her, I STOPPED enabling her behavior. When I would come home and find my clothing all over the floor for no reason, I would simply walk over to it and put it back. When she cursed me out for serving her coffee that wasn't at the exact temperature she wanted I laughed. Once she knew she couldn't get a reaction out of me she was out. Previous to that when we would get in to heated arguments, I would turn insane. I'm normally a calm individual but with her I turned in to a maniac. Several times it got physical when I held her back from destroying my stuff or she threatened to walk outside at 2AM.

Key, one day you realize that she is mentally ill and lives a life of absolute horror- Your anger will subside and you'll see her for what she is. A wounded human being with no hope. I'd rather be homeless under a bridge with my temperament than a BPD with a billion dollars.

With 3-5 years of therapy she MAY learn to cope with her emotions, but the odds are infintisimle. She will manipulate therapists and go from treatment to treatment, always searching for a fix that doesn't exist. BPD is as a close to a human black hole as anything else in this world.

Good luck my friend.

"ToddPhin wrote:

Her friends are only seriously messed up people bc she feels a commonality with them and likely has a low self worth. Having a commonality with them and having a low self worth are likely not possible without having an understanding of her own existence. That would lead me to believe that she might know what's going on but is unwilling to work on herself (thanks to her mental health of course).

I would consult the therapists who've spent time with her and ask them what odds they'd put on a person like her ever leading a life that doesn't compromise the sanity of those around her. If their answers offer minimal optimism, then it might be wise to play the probability here (send her packing) and thus focus on the other daughter who does have a chance at a normal life rather than risk destroying your family over a glimmer of hope. It's not too late for your healthy daughter to become damaged by all of this, so spend as much time as possible loving, cherishing, and nurturing her.

This may qualify as an instance where you need to fight your instinct of parental obligation.... and fight those painful guilty feelings that accompany the thoughts of "abandoning a child". You and your wife can't let thoughts of "If we kick her out, what if such and such happens to her?" control your lives. Is your daughter more of a loner? Either way, she'll eventually probably end up becoming one as she gradually gives up on relationships.

IDK, maybe you can look at it this way: by allowing this to persist on, you're essentially acting as enablers, and thus preventing her from developing the mental coping skills required for her function in the real world, which also means preventing her from adapting to the real world...... b/c, in order for her to become happy in her own mind, it will most likely come as the result of adaptation rather than through change, as she figures out ways to fit the world to her rather than her to the world. As emotionally difficult as it is for you to deal with her in your household, it's probably equally difficult and incredibly stressful, if not traumatic, for her to live in a normal household as a mentally/emotionally unhealthy person who's being asked to conform. Being on her own, that burdening stress should diminish as she learns to adapt. It's possible that this adapting/coping process leaves her choosing a life or lifestyle that you don't approve of or necessarily want for her, but it might be one that's best for her overall state of mind if that makes sense. If she is able to adapt, it's important that you accept her for who she becomes and definitely not enter the divisive "pass judgment" mode bc she'll choose her own sanity over the stressors of conformity. As it stands, once she is able to adapt and achieve some level of mental homeostasis within her own world, she may feel that it's less stressful and emotionally easier to simply cut ties with her family (just something to be prepared for). Maybe you could do something like this- tell her that if she really wants to become a nurse that you'll let her stay there as long as she enrolls in school, keeps up her grades, and graduates. That way, if she does get kicked out of the house, it will be the result of her own actions, of which only she can be held accountable for. Better piece of mind on your part.

Your daughter sounds exactly like my ex wife down to the T by the way. She's in her 40's now, and nothing has or could change her, not even witnessing her teenage daughter flatline in the hospital before being revived (doctors didn't think she'd make it through the night). Not even the stark realization of the fragility of life smacking her in the face was able to wake her up and change her. She went so far as incorporating stage 3 breast cancer and all its trimmings into her manipulation repertoire (it was all a lie). She's a nurse too by the way. My ex would never seek therapy but I'm fairly certain that she's both BPD and sociopathic, and it sounds like your daughter may be comorbid as well, but I'm not a shrink. She'll most likely try to keep you and your wife roped in for as long as possible, using any means necessary, and you'll have difficulty discerning it b/c we as mentally healthy, responsible, empathy-feeling individuals simply can't fathom ourselves acting in such an intentionally deceitful, manipulative, destructive manner at the expense of others, let alone those close to us.

By the way, and sorry to bring this up, but have you looked into the avenue of getting her tubes tied? I fear her next step in this evolution may be to use a child to secure her current dependency status on you guys, especially if a deep fear of abandonment is festering (heck, the fear of abandonment itself may be a significant culprit in her desire to remain lazy and irresponsible). Rather than seeking behavioral change or a lifestyle change, she may feel it's easier to tether you to a grandchild. She'll promise that the baby will be good for her, but ultimately you'll end up becoming parents again and the child will likely represent a means of maintaining her lazy status quo (staying at home, no work, no school, etc).

Really feel bad about what your family is going through man. I know how it makes it a struggle to maintain your own sanity. If your situation is anything like mine- if change is what you and your wife absolutely desire, it will probably have to come from the two of you creating it yourselves, rather than relying on it to come from your daughter. Best of luck brother.
:bighug:

Luckily, my kid has bad womanly problems so she's been on birth control for about a year now. That balances that part out and she knows not to mess with it......so that's a big "phew". It's been my biggest fear as well- on the verge of having an empty nest and then starting parenthood all over again. I generally like kids but after the last few years, I definitely don't want any more.

My daughter has disappeared almost every night this week so we finally told her two days ago- you'll either follow the simple house rules or it's time to leave. Our house rules have always been just two things- treat others well and clean up after yourself. She decided to leave though and I said, "Okay, but you need to pack up all your things this time- all the stuff you have thrown throughout the house and your bedroom isn't staying there." Since she got out of her last hospital stay, she's used her bedroom, the guest bedroom, the living room, the covered back porch, etc....they all have stuff everywhere like it's her bedroom. That started a war but I figured it was one worth fighting, because one way or another she needed to be responsible.

Anyway, she left two days ago, came back yesterday for half the day to pack up more stuff (but she just sat on her smartphone all day instead), stopped by last night and then she was back today a few times. I realized that she was basically taking the best of both worlds since she was spending the night with friends and coming home to eat/get clothes, so I told her again today....grab all of your stuff if you're leaving. She got mad and left without anything (again), so we'll see what happens tomorrow. She has this poor, dumb 23 year old running her everywhere- I think the guy is in love with her and she has zero interest at all.

So that's where we stand. I didn't technically kick her out because we made it crystal clear- follow our two rules and you're welcome here forever. She's just that darn stubborn though...I sometimes wonder if she will ever change.

You asked a few questions- BPD is treated 100% through therapy and life coping skills...once you adapt, you can live a relatively normal life. I'm sure it's hard as heck to realize that you have to make massive changes though and she's just not strong enough to accept it...she'd rather be miserable than put in the work. And the reason she hangs out with losers is because she just comes off too strong when meeting new people- you can tell there's something slightly off and I think it shies people away from her. Other folks struggling seem to recognize that right off the bat though and they're drawn to it...I don't fully understand that part myself.

If I had to guess, they think that if they can help someone else as screwed up as they are, then that's the next best thing from being normal. The only difference is that my kid could be normal if she worked hard for about 6 months. It's infinitely frustrating.

"Bumrush wrote:

I was with a borderline personality disordered woman for close to 5 years. It was HELL after she stopped idealizing me.
The disorder is nearly impossible to fix as it is hard wired in to her brain. I would suggest forcing her to go therapy. There is a strong possibility that she also has an eating disorder and /or was sexually abused by someone at some point. I know this is difficult to hear, but borderline personality, while it may have some genetic roots, is typically the product of very traumatic events during childhood development.

You are basically in a no win situation and the condition gets worse over time, especially after she may seem to be on the up and up.. It's at that point that their self destructive behaviors really manifest themselves.

My advice is, get therapy for you and your wife, have her sent to therapy (even if it's inpatient) and get the deep seated roots to her problems. It may events you never even knew happened.

Good luck my friend.

That's interesting- we know that she was sexually abused (as in touched by a boyfriend) about the time all of this started getting bad....at that time in her life she was maybe a 3 or 4 out of 10 on the problematic/hard to be around scale. Afterwards, she jumped to a 6....then to a 7 or 8 within the year. Where a normal person would be back to zero after an inpatient stay, she might come back out at a 5.

She was also dated-raped by someone she has always looked up to about 3 months ago- I've always hated this guy because he's a complete loser. He's 28, gave her some kind of pill one night and they ended up having sex...but she insists it was consensual, even though she can't remember anything that happened. But that's the obsession part of the disorder and she can't see it. We still want to put his ass in jail so bad it hurts, but what can you do?

There is a lot I haven't said, but mainly my daughter has always seen the worst possible scenarios in an awesome life. We live on five acres in a big house in the country with a pool, a hot tub and a pool table. My kid has a huge room, all the latest toys/gadgets and we overhauled a car for her 16th birthday (she wrapped it around a tree 9 months later....should have died). Then we bought her a 2nd car. We take great vacations a few times a year and stay in nice resorts....maybe not 5 star places but not too far from it. I mean, we have spoiled the heck out of our kids...it's where all our free money has always gone. Yet she still sees her home life as horrible. I just don't get it.

"KeyFin wrote:

That's interesting- we know that she was sexually abused (as in touched by a boyfriend) about the time all of this started getting bad....at that time in her life she was maybe a 3 or 4 out of 10 on the problematic/hard to be around scale. Afterwards, she jumped to a 6....then to a 7 or 8 within the year. Where a normal person would be back to zero after an inpatient stay, she might come back out at a 5.

She was also dated-raped by someone she has always looked up to about 3 months ago- I've always hated this guy because he's a complete loser. He's 28, gave her some kind of pill one night and they ended up having sex...but she insists it was consensual, even though she can't remember anything that happened. But that's the obsession part of the disorder and she can't see it. We still want to put his *** in jail so bad it hurts, but what can you do?

There is a lot I haven't said, but mainly my daughter has always seen the worst possible scenarios in an awesome life. We live on five acres in a big house in the country with a pool, a hot tub and a pool table. My kid has a huge room, all the latest toys/gadgets and we overhauled a car for her 16th birthday (she wrapped it around a tree 9 months later....should have died). Then we bought her a 2nd car. We take great vacations a few times a year and stay in nice resorts....maybe not 5 star places but not too far from it. I mean, we have spoiled the heck out of our kids...it's where all our free money has always gone. Yet she still sees her home life as horrible. I just don't get it.

BPD develops during early childhood. It is VERY possible that events happened that you are unaware of and that the inappropriate touching triggered her mental illness that was repressed from earlier incidents.

Like I said, a billion dollars, all the toys in the world, the perfect life DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE for the black hole in her head. Since perfection is the only thing that makes her happy, she will always crash as life is full of imperfections and grey matter. She lives in all black and all white.

I hate to be the one to say it, but get to the root if you care to understand where all of this comes from. Do not confront her though.

Also, by no means do I claim to be an expert, but I spent 2-3 years studying this, going to online forums, going to therapy, supporting her in therapy. I took my vows seriously. So take my advice with a grain of salt, I am not a psychologist and my assumptions may be 100% incorrect. There is a train of thought that people can develop the disorder through abnormal brain structure.

Sorry I am late to this discussion Key. I rarely check the lounge.

I have been a parish pastor for 33 years; many of them in small towns where I was the closest thing to a trained mental health professional. I have dealt with BPD occasionally and it is a very, very difficult diagnosis and even more difficult treatment.

Let me add my voice to the call for you and your wife to get counseling. I would also add your younger daughter to the need for counseling. Her "normal" has been anything but. She will need help to process that in the future.

Whatever you do, y'all will need help with the results of whatever action may come whether or not you force her out of the house. I think there is a real possibility she will take her own life and a note may be left saying she is "blaming" you! While that will be completely untrue, you and your wife will have to deal with the guilt your daughter will try and lay upon you.

We can't determine what, if anything, brought about this disease. Is there an organic reason? Was there a trauma? Doesn't matter to us. Only counseling and probably some meds will deal with the disease properly if at all.

Look at your own notes in this thread. Your daughter has been institutionalized six times by the age of 18. She is mentally ill and it will get worse, far worse. Unfortunately this country makes no provision for the mentally ill until they commit a crime or unless they have solid private insurance. This isn't a political observation as much as a simple statement of fact. Do what you can to get her the help she needs and then do what you have to in order to protect the rest of your family.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

Sorry I am late to this discussion Key. I rarely check the lounge.

I have been a parish pastor for 33 years; many of them in small towns where I was the closest thing to a trained mental health professional. I have dealt with BPD occasionally and it is a very, very difficult diagnosis and even more difficult treatment.

Let me add my voice to the call for you and your wife to get counseling. I would also add your younger daughter to the need for counseling. Her "normal" has been anything but. She will need help to process that in the future.

Whatever you do, y'all will need help with the results of whatever action may come whether or not you force her out of the house. I think there is a real possibility she will take her own life and a note may be left saying she is "blaming" you! While that will be completely untrue, you and your wife will have to deal with the guilt your daughter will try and lay upon you.

We can't determine what, if anything, brought about this disease. Is there an organic reason? Was there a trauma? Doesn't matter to us. Only counseling and probably some meds will deal with the disease properly if at all.

Look at your own notes in this thread. Your daughter has been institutionalized six times by the age of 18. She is mentally ill and it will get worse, far worse. Unfortunately this country makes no provision for the mentally ill until they commit a crime or unless they have solid private insurance. This isn't a political observation as much as a simple statement of fact. Do what you can to get her the help she needs and then do what you have to in order to protect the rest of your family.

Believe it or not, we actually took my daughter off my wife's insurance and got her on Medicaid because it opened more doors. You're right, the system is completely broken and it is almost impossible to find the right kind of help. It's even worse because we know exactly what our daughter needs but we are the last people on Earth she'll listen to...it's very, very hard to live this life and watch someone you love self destruct. Because even when you do get her with the right person (who's usually limited to a dozen sessions), it takes them months to get past all the BS and background stuff. So by the time they get to where they can "treat", the sessions are over.

The good news is that the therapists say that she is not truly suicidal because she likes to argue too much- that shows a fight that suicidal people don't have. But like you said, I'm sure the day is coming where her attempts get more real.

My wife and i have an appointment with a private local counselor on the 28th for our daughter, but she wants a 2 hour session with us first to get background info and stuff like that. We are very hopeful that she's the answer...it feels right and she teaches from a Christian background. But again, it all comes down to our kid...will she make the effort? Will she play games? There's no way to tell.

Things seem to be going decent with her out of the house though. She hasn't been eating much (by choice) and she's currently fighting a cold, so she is calling or stopping by at least once or twice a day. We're walking the tightrope though and trying to stay balanced between loving and tough love- for instance, she wanted my wife to bring her Mucinex this afternoon for the cold...and she lives 30 minutes away. I said heck no- let her go to the store or ask someone else; that's what independent adults do. Was that the right move though? I have absolutely no idea...we're following the doctor's advice and winging it as much as possible. Things are never black and white when dealing with this type of illness.

What does she say when you stop to ask her what it is that she actually wants and would make her happy?

"KeyFin wrote:

...... Things seem to be going decent with her out of the house though. She hasn't been eating much (by choice) and she's currently fighting a cold, so she is calling or stopping by at least once or twice a day. We're walking the tightrope though and trying to stay balanced between loving and tough love- for instance, she wanted my wife to bring her Mucinex this afternoon for the cold...and she lives 30 minutes away. I said heck no- let her go to the store or ask someone else; that's what independent adults do. Was that the right move though? I have absolutely no idea...we're following the doctor's advice and winging it as much as possible. Things are never black and white when dealing with this type of illness.

My instincts say, yes, you did the right thing. If she has any connection to reality and she likely does, she needs to see a consistent link between actions and consequences. IF I want to be independent THEN I am responsible when I am sick. Things like that.

But at a distance, we are all guessing. It sounds like you are trying to get the best care available. Keep at it!

"ToddPhin wrote:

What does she say when you stop to ask her what it is that she actually wants and would make her happy?

I would be careful as a parent in asking that question. It might be correct or it may set her off. That is a counselor's question not necessarily a parent's question in this circumstance, imo. But like so many things in a situation like this, I might be wrong and you might be right.

"ToddPhin wrote:

What does she say when you stop to ask her what it is that she actually wants and would make her happy?

She gives an ultra-detailed answer- she will start college in the Spring and she's going to get her CNA license, then work in a nursing home while she completes her 4-year degree to become a registered nurse. She plans on being a travelling nurse in her 30's, see the world, and possibly of back to school for a doctorate. A few years ago, she had a similar plan as a physical therapist and eventually becoming a chiropractor.

That's what she wants. What will make her happy? The answer is always independence. Without hesitation...she wants to be in control of her life.

But what she says and actually does are two completely different things in both instances- I'd give her about a 2-5% chance of being in college in the Spring....and she can start at the local community college absolutely free. Earlier tonight is another example- she wants to be on her own, but wants mom to drive an hour round trip to bring her cold meds. Yet when she showed up here unannounced an hour ago, she didn't sound congested at all (or get any Mucinex like she asked for).

I think most of the time it's just a dominance thing...she thinks, "How far can I push to make them prove they love me?" But as soon as we do something for her, it's forgotten and on to the next thing she wants. So we're trying to stop that completely and going back to, "you're welcome home at any time IF you follow two simple rules. Otherwise you'll have to do it yourself."

She's been halfway level-headed the past few days (more-so than any time over the past 3 years), so who knows? We might be on a good path. When you live this though every single day, you quickly become a skeptic.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

My instincts say, yes, you did the right thing. If she has any connection to reality and she likely does, she needs to see a consistent link between actions and consequences. IF I want to be independent THEN I am responsible when I am sick. Things like that.

But at a distance, we are all guessing. It sounds like you are trying to get the best care available. Keep at it!

Yup, that's what we are really trying to push telling her to be independent. At the same time though, we tell ever every single day that she's welcome to come home IF she's ready to be respectful and help a little with cleaning/chores. So we'll see where it leads.

"Ohiophinphan" wrote:

I would be careful as a parent in asking that question. It might be correct or it may set her off. That is a counselor's question not necessarily a parent's question in this circumstance, imo. But like so many things in a situation like this, I might be wrong and you might be right.!

Yeah, it's tough to judge...sometimes she just wants to be explosive and over-dramatic. Part of that is being 18 and I understand that, so we basically don't try to push her too much from that angle. The only thing we repetitively say is that we love her and she's welcome at home if she can follow the two rules.

The shrinks have said that there's really no point arguing over other things because it can't lead to something positive- either she's going to turn manic and get crazy with rage/emotion or she'll get depressed and shut down. There's almost a zero percent chance of us scolding her for her behavior and her actually taking it positive...it's always one of the two extremes.

It's almost like playing a chess game against a grand master.....you know you can't win but you're forced to play the game out anyway. And even on the rare occasions where you do make a few brilliant moves, the kid gets unlimited do-overs by default (since we always have to back off before she explodes or gets way down). It's a rigged game but as parents, we're forced to play it.

By the way, I really appreciate everyone chiming in....believe it or not, it has made this week A TON easier. We've been dealing with extremes for about three years straight now and it just beats you down so hard- you sometimes feel like you're going insane since everything is always so unfair against us. I really appreciate all of you giving me a place to vent and talk things out.

Oh, my wife read everything here yesterday- she took a few things away from the conversations as well. I figured she's be mad at me for making her look weak but it's the truth...moms are more loving/nurturing than dads by default. I think it helped her to kind of realize that she can't do everything for the "bad kid" 24/7 and neglect everyone else (including herself) in the process. We're allowing ourselves to be victims while we enable and that has to stop.

Thanks again!

My brother first let me say you are a good dad. Your wife is a good mother. The fact that you are still in the fight tells that.

My sister suffered from this. She ran away from home the first time when she was twelve. Stole my moms wedding ring and the engagement ring that had been passed down thru 7 generations and pawned them to buy heroin when she was 14. My poor mother went thru hell with her. She had three kids that were all taken by the state, spent 4.5 yrs in prison for possession of cocaine and at 30 yrs old, having been out of prison and sober, finally looking like she was getting it all figured out a bit, she was run over by a drunk driver at 2 in the afternoon while crossing the street, in a crosswalk. And he got less time than she did for possession. Yeah, life can be a stone cold bitch sometimes.

Unfortunately my front row seat didn't give me any answers for you. I think others have given you some good advice, you need to heal yourself first. Find ways for your wife and you to have some space and time to just be. Cherish the good one, sacrifice the time you give the older daughter before you sacrifice hers.

Hardest thing is to accept that it's not your fault. And no matter how bad it hurts dad, you can't fix it for her. YOU CAN"T. Help your wife to understand those things too.

All you can do is exactly what you are doing, let her know she is loved and valued, but also that she has to respect your wife and her sister. Draw clear lines for everyone, you have 2 rules for her, help your wife and draw some lines for her to. Be there with arms wide open to help pick up the pieces but you have to stick to the limits that keep the rest of the family whole.

Not easy brah, hopefully a good hard reality check can at least open her eyes and allow her to seek healing for herself too.

"Puka-head wrote:

My brother first let me say you are a good dad. Your wife is a good mother. The fact that you are still in the fight tells that.

My sister suffered from this. She ran away from home the first time when she was twelve. Stole my moms wedding ring and the engagement ring that had been passed down thru 7 generations and pawned them to buy heroin when she was 14. My poor mother went thru hell with her. She had three kids that were all taken by the state, spent 4.5 yrs in prison for possession of cocaine and at 30 yrs old, having been out of prison and sober, finally looking like she was getting it all figured out a bit, she was run over by a drunk driver at 2 in the afternoon while crossing the street, in a crosswalk. And he got less time than she did for possession. Yeah, life can be a stone cold ***** sometimes.

Unfortunately my front row seat didn't give me any answers for you. I think others have given you some good advice, you need to heal yourself first. Find ways for your wife and you to have some space and time to just be. Cherish the good one, sacrifice the time you give the older daughter before you sacrifice hers.

Hardest thing is to accept that it's not your fault. And no matter how bad it hurts dad, you can't fix it for her. YOU CAN"T. Help your wife to understand those things too.

All you can do is exactly what you are doing, let her know she is loved and valued, but also that she has to respect your wife and her sister. Draw clear lines for everyone, you have 2 rules for her, help your wife and draw some lines for her to. Be there with arms wide open to help pick up the pieces but you have to stick to the limits that keep the rest of the family whole.

Not easy brah, hopefully a good hard reality check can at least open her eyes and allow her to seek healing for herself too.

I mean, I'll say that I've accepted it because I know there's nothing I can do...absolutely nothing. It has to come from her. But you know as well as I do that the daily interactions are so intense when you're living in the moment and you see someone throwing their life away...I think that's the hardest part for me. She's a super-smart kid that could have such a great future.

Looking back, I think that she's always had this. Her first best friend was a neighbor girl that we'd all want our sons to marry- not because of her looks (although she's beautiful), but because of the type of person she was/is. I can remember at 8 or 9 years old this neighbor kid would be screaming at my daughter- you can't do that, you're going to get us in trouble. Just super smart, super responsible and a total sweetheart. Looking back, I think the obsession was there even at a super-young age...she was obsessed over an awesome person though who brought out the best in her. We moved about 30 minutes away when my daughter was 12 and their relationship faded since they weren't in the same school anymore....my kid took that very hard. They're still best friends whenever they're together but they really don't see each other anymore- maybe once or twice a year.

In high school, my kid got super close to another awesome gal BUT she started being overly dominant and demanding...and the other gal said the heck with that friendship. My kid's first stint in a facility came shortly thereafter- that's the one time she was truly suicidal I think. And even 2 1/2 years later, she still mentions that 2nd girl from time to time....she can't seem to let it go that she messed up and the friendship is over.

I just wish there was more known about BPD....there's so much conflicting info on how/when it starts, etc. It seems like they just don't know with certainty.

Don't kick your kid out. Life is too short. You can't get back time. Work together to find a solution.

Sorry you're having to deal with this, Key. I have no meaningful advice. Wished I did for you though. At least the Football season should provide a (hopefully) pleasant distraction. Meantime, take Mama out and give her some loving. :up:

How's things brah?

I had a friend that is a nanny and she was actually taking care of a 17 year old with the same issues your daughter is going through. She had gone through 10 other nannies before my friend took the job because she scared them all away, and eventually scared her away. The only way she was able to communicate with her, was by speaking like her, and eventually she was more responsive. But at the beginning it was rough, she was handcuffed by police at least once to twice a week for the first 2 months...

All in all, I don't think kicking her out is the answer for your problem.

The problem with kicking her out is that you can only assume how it will end. Sure, things may work out better for you and your wife/family at the beginning. But there's many paths it can go to..

Best case scenario she may calm the fuck down, get scared and finally behave herself to be accepted back to your home.

worst case scenario she may feel unwanted, unloved, and possibly go through some of her suicidal thoughts (if she has them).

She may need to be institutionalized depending on how bad it is.

So many members already gave you some good advice, so I'll just wish you luck with a situation that clearly isn't easy. I hope it all works out in a way that shines nothing but love.

And if you ever need someone to vent or talk to, my PMs are always open.

"Puka-head wrote:

How's things brah?

Sorry I haven't posted lately- between worrying about friends/family in the path of Irma and working, I've been buried for the past few weeks.

Where do I start? About 3 1/2 weeks ago, we told my 18 year old that she would have to start contributing or move out. She overreacted and left that night to stay with a male friend that's 23 and still lives at home. She was there for a few weeks and called or stopped by every night saying how much she misses us, and we continually told her that she was welcome back home if she could be respectful, stop lying to us and help out a little. Each and every time she said no- she wouldn't come home under those circumstances.

The 23 year old is a geek that's in love with my daughter, but she has no interest in him at all. So we figured that was probably a ticking time bomb and it was- although we don't really know what happened because our kid is a compulsive liar. According to her though, they went to a party in a bad neighborhood, she went outside to smoke a cigarette and some guy grabbed her and raped her in the bushes. She has lied about being raped before so we have no idea how to react, but we did bring her to the emergency room to get checked out and have them run the tests. And she says that she knows who the guy was but she won't tell us or the police- she says that she wants to deal with it instead. I'm wondering if it was the 23 year old though or if anything happened at all....it's so frustrating when you don't know what to believe.

Anyway, she moved in with my wife's parents last week and it's a very good fit- they could use some help around the house and it gets her away from the 23 year old. They're in a small NC town about 35-40 miles from where she was staying so it's just far enough to keep her away from the wrong crowds (she still doesn't have a car). Surprisingly though, she has stopped hanging out with the major losers completely and she's reading the Bible every night, so we still have our fingers crossed. The few times she has spent the night with us, she has been fairly level headed and respectful. The calls for my wife to run across town at a moment's notice have died down as well.

We're fighting a new war though- remember the 15 year old that was basically neglected because we spent so much time dealing with the crazy older one? Well, she doesn't like being in the spotlight at all since we're now on her all the time about school work, helping around the house, etc. She feels like she shouldn't have to lift a finger because her sister never did, which means we're going through all the arguing all over again. That's just typical teenage stuff though and we'll get past it soon enough.

Thanks again for all the comments and advice- we went through a few really tough weeks there at the start of this. We did go to one session of counseling and the therapist wanted my wife to come back alone, but she refused. The same therapist is also seeing my 15 year old to kind of help her work through her anger issues over everything that's happened. We are trying to get the 18 year old in long-term behavioral therapy but we're still striking out with insurance...but she does seem to be doing a whole lot better now that she's away from the people who would really bring her down.

"Vertical Limit wrote:

I had a friend that is a nanny and she was actually taking care of a 17 year old with the same issues your daughter is going through. She had gone through 10 other nannies before my friend took the job because she scared them all away, and eventually scared her away. The only way she was able to communicate with her, was by speaking like her, and eventually she was more responsive. But at the beginning it was rough, she was handcuffed by police at least once to twice a week for the first 2 months...

All in all, I don't think kicking her out is the answer for your problem.

The problem with kicking her out is that you can only assume how it will end. Sure, things may work out better for you and your wife/family at the beginning. But there's many paths it can go to..

Best case scenario she may calm the **** down, get scared and finally behave herself to be accepted back to your home.

worst case scenario she may feel unwanted, unloved, and possibly go through some of her suicidal thoughts (if she has them).

She may need to be institutionalized depending on how bad it is.

That's the one thing I've never understood...she's absolutely fearless. I mean, she wrecked her first car by wrapping it around a tree at 80+ MPH AND almost killed a young family in the opposite lane- and she still drives recklessly (which is why she's not driving our cars anymore).

The first image is right before her 16th birthday- we took my old car and got custom paint, custom wheels, custom exhaust, minor overhaul, refreshed interior, etc. to make it sporty. The image below is a month later after the firemen hit the car with foam AFTER the 2nd explosion. No paint, no seats, no front end...nothing. Heck, we never found two of the wheels/tires. Folks can talk crap about a Hyundai all they want but I'm a fan for life....it took a massive hit and held together beautifully.

She walked away without a scratch- that wreck should have killed her.

She constantly does stuff like that though- people tell her about consequences and she flat-out ignores them. That's the part that drives us nuts. She does not seem to learn lessons like the rest of us would.

"KeyFin wrote:

That's the one thing I've never understood...she's absolutely fearless. I mean, she wrecked her first car by wrapping it around a tree at 80+ MPH AND almost killed a young family in the opposite lane- and she still drives recklessly (which is why she's not driving our cars anymore).

The first image is right before her 16th birthday- we took my old car and got custom paint, custom wheels, custom exhaust, minor overhaul, refreshed interior, etc. to make it sporty. The image below is a month later after the firemen hit the car with foam AFTER the 2nd explosion. No paint, no seats, no front end...nothing. Folks can talk crap about a Hyundai all they want but I'm a fan for life....it took a massive hit and held together beautifully.

She walked away without a scratch- that wreck should have killed her.

She constantly does stuff like that though- people tell her about consequences and she flat-out ignores them. That's the part that drives us nuts.

Your daughter is protected by God, clearly. His force is powerful, and just.