This will be unpopular, and counter-intuitive to many. Some will scream it is insane, but often you must take one step back to take two steps forwards.
Whenever we talk about getting a great pass rush end to pair with Wake, people say that Ireland won't spend a high pick on a player who is situational. And I agree.
And the reason any great pass rush DE will be situational is because of Paul Soliai. If we didn't have Paul Soliai, we could move Odrick back inside and play Odrick and Starks all three downs inside, subbing them when they get tired. Meanwhile, you develop Kheeston Randall and select a mid round run-stopping DT for goalline situations.
That would open the DE spot for a three down, top prospect.
Instead, we don;t want to waste Odrick by moving him to depth behind Starks and Soliai, and we don;t want to draft a high pick DE to sit behind Odrick on 1st and second down.
I realize our run defense may suffer slightly going from Soliai to Odrick, but Odrick has talent and can play inside. If we want to improve this pass rush Odrick has to move inside so we can commit a high respource to a high talent DE.
That doesn;t happen unless we get rid of Starks or Soliai. I think Starks is a better fit for a penetrating, pass rush four-front that still holds up versus the run.
My vote is to move Paul Soliai. The problem is... Paul Soliai will not easily be moved. He's an obstacle alright. To runners, and to our progress.
Page 1 of 3
-
cullenbigcstill, Vengeful Odin, maynard and 1 other person like this.
-
Oh he will... but lower in the draft. As Ck has pointed out a bunch of times, Ireland has a history of expecting his first rounders to play maximum snaps, not be rotational or situational.
-
Based on how he performed as an end?
Odrick has good strength, quickness, and played at DT before being moved to end. I disagree that he is not starting caliber. Totally disagree. Not starting caliber? I mean come on. Really.Larryfinfan likes this. -
Are we back to assuming he was not on board with Parcells-era picks?
-
I don't necessarily think we should erase those picks however I think his history right now is just for the 2012 draft.
He was drafting players to fit Tony Sparano's (so pretty much Bill Parcells) team philosophy... now he will draft players to fit Joe Philbin's team philosophy. The fact of the matter is that Jeff Ireland is going to look at players who fit a different mold than what he drafted in the past... whether those players will be a success is still up for debate.
I really think the "well we're going to select X because of what we did in 2009/2010" reason is very flawed but that's just IMO.Ducken, LandShark13, ToddPhin and 1 other person like this. -
One other thought... consider these choices:
Choice A
DE - Cam Wake
DT - Randy Starks
DT - Paul Soliai
DE- Jared Odrick / Olivier Vernon
* plus lower picks as depth / rotation
Choice B
DE - Ezekiel Ansah / Okafor / or Tank Carradine
DT - Randy Starks
DT - Jared Odrick (backed by Kheeston Randall)
DE - Cam Wake
* PLUS an additional player... like TE Joseph Fauria or FS like Reid or Rambo from the 3rd/4th round pick from trading Soliai. -
But we are not talking about a style of player to fit a scheme. We are talking more about a GM mindset of value with a first round pick meaning they will play, they will start. Jeff Ireland's 1st round picks start (and yes, that's the history we have so far, so let's use it... when he does otherwise, let's talk about him doing otherwise. til then...) His 1st rounders aren;t situational guys.
I think that is separate from the coaching system. -
It's not.
Sounds a lot like how Ireland never drafted a QB in the 1st til Tannehill.Ohio Fanatic likes this. -
We're talking about how each system prioritizes a player along with how they fit a specific scheme... which is a part of a team philosophy.
This player priority will certainly be taken into account when choosing their first round draft selection. -
I don't know if I'd call it a bargain price tag... fair is more accurate.Aqua4Ever04 and Bpk like this.
-
I want Starks to put some weight on, like when he prepped to play NT that year, and put Odrick next to him (and have Oddie bulk up too).
Between them, if we rotate Kheeston and McDaniel in, and draft a big body DT in the 5th round or so, we have an interior with much better pass rush ability, more mobility, and more importantly... we actually get more out of the DE spot with a player who is natural at that postion rather than Odrick trying to play there. -
Well don;t expect the rush to improve then, because Ireland will wait til lower in the draft to address it.
So you best hope we take a great secondary player at 12. -
I agree that Soliai is a great run stuffer. But does having him mean we are not maximizing the return from the entire group of four D-line spots.
I think that's what's happening. -
I think Soliai is entering a contract year in 2013 so he may not even be in Miami's long-term plans.
-
Even better reason to get some value for him now rather than simply letting him leave.
And I bet that once he is gone, whether sooner or later, our line will perform better as a whole, because we will be able to get guys into each spot that maximizes the return from those spots. -
I get that, sounds good actually. But in this case I'd go with the if it ain't broke philosophy. Starks has been a beast for us, he played NT, 5 tech, but 3 is his best spot IMO. I'd like to see more pash rush, but not at that expense.
I agree Carridine would be a solid pickup as a situational pass rusher, or his teammate B Jenks in the 2nd or 3rd. I wouldn't have a problem taking a DE in the first round either. That'd give us one of the best DLs in the league.Bpk likes this. -
Soliai is a solid player who has a couple dominant games a year. I don't think you can justify his paycheck for a guy who isn't consistent and can't rush the passer.
It's not that wacky. There are 1-techniques with his skill-set, and he certainly wasn't a stranger there in college.Bpk likes this. -
It's still a value/resources game. You're paying a premium for Paul Soliai because he's capable of playing a 2-gap position, when you're not a 2-gap defense. You can get a 300lb. guy to do the same job a bit differently(although well within the confines of this defense) and he'd almost certainly be cheaper.
I don't think the interior of the defensive line is really a thing you can't screw with. The play of the run defense came much more from the linebackers, edge defenders, and Reshad Jones than it did Soliai/Starks.Bpk likes this. -
Anyone know the % of snaps that Soliai and Starks played last year? And anyone know the % of snaps Odrick played at just DE last year? W/o anything to back this up, I have a feeling that there is enough "starters %" of snaps for Soliai, Starks, Odrick, and a rookie RDE between the 3 positions of LDT, RDT, and RDE... with Odrick getting his "starters %" spread between the 3 positions.
-
The boded sentence I think is the key word. Soliai isn't consistent. He's got games he is dominant, not seasons. Even worse this year I think he failed against teams with dominant offensive lines like the 49ers or Patriots, he didn't really rise to the occasion.maynard likes this.
-
I am not saying your idea is not sound, nor am I saying it is...:pointlol:...I think there are too many holes and uncertainties where the #12 pick can help shore up one of those other holes. The timing is all wrong imo. Miami would be much better off spending that pick on an OL, WR or secondary depending who is available.
-
Good, let someone else pay for his half season good play and the other 8 games of mailing it in.
-
I respect both sides of the argument, but IMO Soliai is the type of player you don't appreciate until he's gone and your defense begins having trouble limiting offenses on first down.
P h i N s A N i T y likes this. -
While I understand what you are saying I got sick of people running straight at us and Soliai did nothing. He is a decent player but thats just it, there are a lot of Soliai type players out there and you know as well as I do he is going to ask for HUGE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If we let anyone walk, it should be this guy.
-
Kinda reminds me what happened when he let Travis Minor and Bruce Bowens go back in '07. Sure enough, our special teams and our pass rush went to the pits.
-
I really don't think there are a lot of "Soliai type players" out there to be honest.ToddPhin likes this.
-
I dunno, I see a Soliai clone on every other team. Cincinnatti, Houston, Baltimore; and that's just off the top of my head, as well as Polynesian specific...
I thought he was already under contract. If not, I'd retain him. Just because if you can't hold the line of scrimmage you're done.
That said, we all saw what happened in the fourth quarter of our first Pats game last year. If Kheeston Randall can be serviceable, why not let Soliai go? -
He's not. But very good point.
Could we survive w/o Soliai? Yeah. But I certainly don't think we're better off.Aqua4Ever04 and ToddPhin like this.
Page 1 of 3