[h=2]Signing both Mike Wallace & Greg Jennings/The Pat Riley effect[/h]The similarities are eerie. The Miami Heat endured 3 years of mediocre basketball to get to the summer of 2010, creating cap space along the way, and then shook up the entire sport by signing the big 3.
-The Fins have 40+ millions in cap space.
-Jake Long and Reggie Bush and Randy Starks come off the books, with cheaper, viable replacements in place in Jonathan Martin and Lamar Miller and Jared Odrick
-Jeff Ireland is working for an owner in Stephen Ross that has given him a vote of confidence, is changing uniforms, upgrading the stadium (which is inevitable IMO) and legitimately wants to usher in a new era of Dolphins football. By all accounts, he is looking to go big..
-Waning fan interest in Dolphins football, in juxtaposition to the rise of the Miami Heat, whom they compete with for entertainment dollars
-5 years of investment in the defensive and offensive line, with no glaring holes on either
-a defense that looks to be, at the very least, SOUND for the foreseeable future
-exciting building blocks at 2 of the most important positions in an NFL organization: QB & Head Coach
-a plethora of draft picks, especially in the first 100. Cheap labor..
-arguably a top 3 slot receiver under contract in Davone Bess
-a destination in Miami where half the league probably already owns homes, no state income tax, etc
Assume that Greg Jennings takes a contract that pays him 8 mil (against the cap). Assume that Mike Wallace accepts a contract for 10 mil (against the cap). For the sake of this hypothetical, lets assume both contracts are for 4 years..
Why is this so absurd a notion? I have been arguing with friends and wrestling with it myself, but don't Greg Jennings and Mike Wallace perfectly complement each other? If you asked for the prototypes at both WR positions, you'd essentially come up with Wallace & Jennings.
-Mike Wallace is the burner, capable of going deep, getting YAC, and pushing the safety far out of the box.
-Greg Jennings (like Antonio Brown) is the route runner that can create separation with his elite route running.
-Both are proven in the league, unlike a receiver able to be had in the 1st round of the draft
Why not go for both? You'd still have 20+ million in cap space and all of your picks. In this scenario, i'd love to see Tyler Eifert (1st down machine) in the first, but signing these 2 essentially allows you to draft BPA throughout the draft, and/or go for a defensive end or corner back in the 1st. If both were signed, i don't think anyone here would have a problem even trading back and drafting a right tackle in the first round.
Imagine this offense..
QB-Ryan Tannehill
OL-Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito, Mike Pouncey, Josh Samuda, John Jerry (this is for the hypothetical, not trying to argue the merits of THIS particular lineup)
TE-Eifert
FB-Charles Clay (Clay, assuming he bulks and embraces the FB position, would be a dynamic pass catcher at the FB position)
RB-Lamar Miller, Daniel Thomas
WR-Mike Wallace, Greg Jennings, Davone Bess, Rishard Matthews
Before i get attacked, answer me this question: why not?
Nobody thought what Pat Riley did was possible, but it was, and he made it happen..partially bc of Riley's foresight, partially bc Dwyane Wade helped recruit these guys, and partially bc this is Miami..and when on the rise, this is where athletes want to be.
There is no question that these guys can both contribute for the next 4 years. Both are respected in their respective locker rooms. So again, i'll ask...
why not?
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ToneyTone, smahtaz, first&goal and 3 others like this.
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Because we are the Knicks of pro football, sadly.
Patssuck, SuperMarksBros., eltos_lightfoot and 1 other person like this. -
It would be a ballsy move. I'd be on board with it just for that. How smart it is or realistic....I don't know...but definite points for ballsy.
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Thank you, sir. lol
I think between Ross lobbying for a stadium revamp, the competition with the Heat for $, and the fact that we have a young QB in place...i think Ross is down for ballsy moves. An additional benefit...the Miami Dolphins would get at least 3 primetime games. -
Regardless of whether this scenario happens, this offseason is one of the biggest the franchise has faced, probably in the last decade. Maybe longer.
Jeff Ireland can shut all his detractors up (myself included) with an offseason for the ages.
I wouldn't bet much on him doing it, but I'm hoping like hell he does. -
I really want this to happen. Just don't see it though.
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Understood. However, do you think anyone saw LeBron coming to Miami?
I truly believe Stephen Ross wants to exorcise the demons of the past. Everything he is doing points in a direction we should all be excited about. 2 proven WRs that complement each other, allowing you to plug in at other positions, without compromising the salary cap. If something like this were to happen, whose to say someone like Ed Reed doesn't see it and, like Ray Allen or Mike Miller, decide to sign on and finish their career in Miami? The more i think about this the more i think it's possible. I am, no doubt, a hopeless romantic tho.. -
I don't think Miami would try and sign both guys. I think a more realistic option would be to sign one of them and try and draft a Keenan Allen or Cordarrelle Patterson. Maybe you mix in another dynamic guy like Bailey or Goodwin as well.
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Big money free agency is treacherous as hell, and signing two contracts like that pushes you back into the boom/bust cycle that is way more damaging to teams ability to compete regularly than most people care to consider. Most big money free agent signings will be failures. Signing two in one area, and essentially going overkill just exposes you to greater risk that your money will be spent inefficiently.
I'm not sure I want the Dolphins to go after big money free agents outside of maybe Jennings. That's not really where free agency success comes from, it comes from getting more than your money's worth in low to mid-range guys.
I'm not entirely convinced Mike Wallace is a safe investment, either. He switched offenses and looks pedestrian this year. That should be way more alarming to people than it appears to be. Bruce Arians was willing to bend over backwards for Wallace, Haley less so and I'm not sure Philbin/Sherman are going to want to either. Without running a limited route tree, all the motion releases, and Ben Roethlisberger, are you going to get the 1,200 yard, 20-yards a reception Wallace, or the rich man's Ted Ginn from this year?unluckyluciano, Anonymous and Stringer Bell like this. -
I had a feeling Bron was close to leaving eventually, and once "the decision " came around and talked about all his suitors and possible places to go, I had no doubt in my mind Miami was a done deal. But this... Bleh.
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We need a Te more than two Wr's.
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I don't see two WRs having the same kind of impact in football that you had with the Heat. Football is more about teams growing together than it is about stars. That's why you generally see teams that go for broke in NFL FA rarely succeed.
Justright, Bpk, jegol71 and 1 other person like this. -
Signing both Mike Wallace & Greg Jennings/The Pat Riley effect
I'm fine with signing Jennings, but Wallace isn't worth the money he will get IMO. -
The logic behind my hypothetical is 1-not having to draft a question mark at WR and 2- making these moves for 2 proven guys, and still having 20 mil and draft picks to address everything else. WR wouldn't be a concern for the next 4 years if we make this move. It makes football sense, bc the entire dynamic of the offense changes. Everyone else gets better, everyone else works with a wide open field.
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Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member
Well....Your theory is great. I don't know that it is very practical in reality though....
1) Martin, Miller and Odrick are FAR from viable replacements for Long, Bush and Starks. Long has medical issues and will want a huge payday (and likely will get it somewhere else), but Martin is not proven on the left side even though he played adequately, but remember the run game was not the same without Long in the lineup. Miller may the closest to a replacement for Bush as there is, but can he learn the pass pro parts of his position and is he durable enough to hold up to being an every down player... Even Bush wasn't that... and Odrick is ok and arguably would be playing in the right position that Starks has been doing (versus what they've been doing with Odrick) but is he really as good as Starks ? I'm not convinced. Let's face it, if we lose those three, we are drafting a RB, an OT and DT/DE without a doubt. Creating more holes...is that really the way to go ?? For the record, I can get behind letting Bush go, but there has to be either a FA or drafted RB replacement in that case...takes away from the TE, WR, DE, LB, S spots that we need to reserve for this draft...
2) Jennings is going to want a one level down from elite WR pay likely...He fits here and knows the system, would help Tanny tremendously, but do you want to pay him at that rate? I would be happy if he comes here but not overly disappointed if he doesn't come...I remember that a year ago, it was a lock that the Fins would have Matt Flynn because he was so familiar with the system and the coach and he was a sure-fire lock after 3 starts to be the next Brat Favre...How'd that work out ??
3) Wallace is a head case, ok, maybe not as bad a headcase as Marshall, but a headcase nonetheless. He wants elite money and while he seems capable of being that guy, doesn't his play always leave you expecting just a little bit more ?? I've yet to watch him in a game and say "He's elite"... It's always he's very dangerous but.... He doesn't want to conform to the Steelers way, which is proven to be a winning organization and they've been in contention forever...why is it that he can't work with that organization ?? There is something I just don't like about acquiring him, but I can't quantify it very well...
Like I said, in theory, this looks like a great plan...but in reality...I'm not too sure it actually works out that way... -
I don't really see how you can say this. Two of those three veterans have serious questions as to their continued performance, and all those rookies have shown upside when their number has called. It's not always going to work out, but what's the difference between Cameron Wake replacing Joey Porter/Jason Taylor, Reshad Jones replacing Yeremiah Bell, etc.?
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Where are people getting this "Wallace is a head case" thing? I haven't heard anything that would make this true.
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Signing Jennings and Wallace would not be Rileyesque. It would be Dolanesque. And a sport that fields 11 players at a time isn't very analogous with a sport that fields 5 at a time.
unifiedtheory, Bpk and Stringer Bell like this. -
You're missing the point. Wallace and Jennings are the epitome of what you want at flanker and split end. Those positions would be solidified for the next 4 years, 1-giving Tannehill legitimate weapons to grow with who scare opposing D's and 2-allowing you to use draft picks and the other 20 million in cap space at corner, defensive end, safety, tight end, etc...OR keep a salary cap "buffer" of 5 million or so to ensure that we never arrive at salary cap hell (jets, eagles, etc)
..And if you think Davone Bess has been an over achiever with the Fins thus far, he would become an absolute beast with 2 real receiving threats on either side. Add a seam threat TE and more experience for Tannehill and this offense could be a juggernaut.
Again also...the Ed Reed's and Tony Gonzalez's of the NFL would look at the Miami Dolphins in a whole new light, and could be had at a discount bc of our lack of state income tax. -
Just saw on the bottom of ESPN, the Ravens are considering releasing Boldin to free up some space on the Salary Cap. What would be his asking price compared to Jennings/Wallace/Bowe?
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Yeah Boldin at this point is a REALLY good #2 on a passing team or a "viable" #1 on a team that does more pounding on the ground than airing it out.
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The Pat Riley affect doesnt apply to football. Look at San Fran at all that talent they have and no one is comparing the team to the Heat.
I see them going after either Wallace, Bowe, or Bolden. They definately go after someone who can spread the field and yes i think Bolden qualifies. I look for his price to be high. I would love to have Jennings or Hartline as a number 2. After last season i believe they will grab 2 WRs in FA( i include Hartline as a FA). I also believe they draft another in the 3rd or 4th round ( Swope most likely ) .
I believe our top needs going into the draft will be CB, OL, Safety then WR. -
The Pat Riley effect means clearing cap space to lure free agents, transforming a team by adding elite players and then luring in veterans on short term contracts bc of the excitement and potential surrounding the team. The analogy does work. Ray Allen = Ed Reed. Mike Miller = Tony Gonzalez. Think along those lines.
Obviously i know that the NFL is not the NBA. But parallells can be drawn.. -
No, I get the point. I was politely telling you that you are completely wrong. Now I'm just going to bluntly say you are completely wrong in everything from your basic analogy to your concept that signing two not-elite WRs is the equivalent to signing the best player, the third best player, and a top ten player in a smaller sport.
I'm one of the biggest advocates on this forum for quickly and seriously improving WR, but "Jennings + Wallace = Riley" is so absurd that I have to stop myself from writing more, because I feel like I'm becoming Disgustipate right now.
Just to make it pretty clear: the closest an NFL team could come to what Riley did would be to somehow sign Aaron Rodgers despite the fact that Rodgers is still under contract with another team.Disgustipate likes this. -
For some reason Bowe isn't getting the love but he's my choice between the big 3. Sign him and draft a WR or two. We'd be looking at Bowe-Allen-Bess-Bailey-Binns-Matthews-Moore in camp fighting for slots. And that group would cost less than what Jennings-Wallace cost alone. We'd still have room to resign Starks and Smith, plus Fasano or another #1 TE.
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Agreed on Bowe. In my eyes he's the entire package at WR. He has the speed to get deep against most corners and the size to out muscle the rest. He's basically my idea of a #1 guy.
I wouldn't be against signing Bowe and drafting someone in the first. You need weapons in the NFL today and we severely lack weapons. -
IMO there is ZERO chance of Wallace living up to a ten million a year deal. In general guys perform better before their 2nd or 3rd contract. Wallace specifically is a speedster but we run a lot of quick game, shorter passes with YAC potential. That's not Wallace's game. We'd basically have to change our pass game to suit his strengths, I'm not even sure how to do that considering his best routes or take offs and deep comebacks. The Steelers don't let 25 yr old players walk if they are worth keeping, that scares me too. They paid Antonio Brown but are content with Wallace kicking rocks?
Not saying Jennings is worth 8 million but he's a complete player, the only risk there is the diminishing returns over he life of the contract as he gets older. If he stays healthy its possible he could earn the 8 million though the unwritten rule w top tier FAs is that you're going to pay for more than you get, even with guys who play well on their new deal. Dansby for example. -
The analogy to Riley was planning for this offseason, and creating the cap space to do something special. Riley understood that being in Miami is IN ITSELF a recruiting tool for free agents, and all you have to do is create the cap space, which is what he...and Jeff Ireland...did.
Wallace and Jennings would solidify those positions for years to come, and Bess would wreak havoc. Add a seam threat tight end and Lamar Miller, assuming he works on his pass blocking, and the sky is the limit on offense.
Stop being a child. Dolan just signed whoever he could, whenever he could, regardless of whether the pieces fit. Wallace and Jennings not only fit, but they are a perfect combination, and signing them allows the Dolphins to use the plethora of draft picks at their disposal to plug holes, and still remain in a cap friendly situation. Nothing the Dolphins are doing are even remotely close to what Dolan did with the Knicks, and in fact, closely resembles precisely what Riley did with the Heat. Add in the element of veterans that would want to finish their careers in sunny South Florida, with an emerging, revamped, respected Dolphins organization, and the analogy is close to perfect. Try not to let your head explode if you do choose to respond to this. -
I think a lot of the same stuff that lead to them trading Marshall is reflected in Bowe. He's less of a malcontent, but he's got the same focus/effort issues and looks like he has to have a heavy workload to get into the game. If he were just Dwayne Bowe the physical profile in the 2013 draft, they'd probably love him.GMJohnson likes this.
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That's not what happened at all, nor does Jeff Ireland desire players who might see Miami as a destination rather than as something to be tolerated. When was the last time Richie Incognito or Richard Marshall were spotted on South Beach?
Jeff Ireland's assembled core has collectively played through their contracts. This wasn't done in preparation for some super free agency period like the NBA's, where the elite players in the league were coming off expiring contracts. This NFL free agency period has a decided lack of elite players, much like the rest of them. The closest this FA class gets to elite is maybe Ryan Clady and Jake Long.
Your analogy is wrong.
No, they wouldn't. Jennings is best fit, but he's turning 30 years old: "years to come" is not an accurate forecasting of the rest of his career. Meanwhile, Wallace is a one-trick pony. It's a very nice trick, but it's just one trick, and that trick isn't worth the money he's asking for. As for Bess, I have my doubts that he will ever be more than what he currently his, though I'll step out on a limb and say he and Hartline might not be able to coexist on the same team.
Neither Jennings nor Wallace are anywhere near in stature in the NFL as LeBron, Wade, or Bosh are in the NBA. Signing them would not be a coup on the level of what Riley did. It would actually be a little disconcerting, given that we would be acquiescing to the salary demands of Mike Wallace in that scenario, despite all the other holes on the roster left to fill.
Signing Jennings is a good move, but not a Rileyesque move. Signing Jennings and acquiring two more WRs, preferably through the draft, would be ideal.
Stop tossing out ad hominem lines when someone on a public forum disagrees with the conceptual underpinnings of the idea you posted on said public forum.
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