State of The Franchise

"bigballa2102 wrote:

Its not over gase just said cutler was his #1 guy!!! This guys is more unbeleiavble after what Moore did in the second half he should have said we are lookin at all options to win games or somethin...this is crazy hes more of a moron as time goes on.

Matt Moore? Color me meh.

"finsfandan wrote:

Okay, let’s play your game.

Please tell me at which point of the franchise I’m supposed to have inherited the HC job and take responsibility for others decisions.

I thought I was pretty clear- I laid out what Gase did with Ajayi in 2016 and presented the problem leading up to when he was traded. I specifically asked if you don't trade him, then what do you do differently?

"KeyFin wrote:

I thought I was pretty clear- I laid out what Gase did with Ajayi in 2016 and presented the problem leading up to when he was traded. I specifically asked if you don't trade him, then what do you do differently?

I personally would have benched him without trading him.

Ajayi is a good RB, and I don't like it when talent is sent away like that with little compensation. Either modify the offense to take better advantage of his running style (a good OC could do that) or convince the player to get with the program using all the leverage you have as HC (a good HC could do that).

I had no problem trading ajay but would have thought for better than a 4th rounder.

"cbrad wrote:

I personally would have benched him without trading him.

Ajayi is a good RB, and I don't like it when talent is sent away like that with little compensation. Either modify the offense to take better advantage of his running style (a good OC could do that) or convince the player to get with the program using all the leverage you have as HC (a good HC could do that).

It's hard when we don't know what happened behind the scenes...it's possible he tried those things and Ajayi didn't listen. Or maybe those things were completely over his head and he blindly traded the guy. We just don't know either way.

"cbrad wrote:

I personally would have benched him without trading him.

Ajayi is a good RB, and I don't like it when talent is sent away like that with little compensation. Either modify the offense to take better advantage of his running style (a good OC could do that) or convince the player to get with the program using all the leverage you have as HC (a good HC could do that).

He did both of those.

How long do you give it for the most replaceable offensive skill position exactly?

"Fin D wrote:

He did both of those.

How long do you give it for the most replaceable offensive skill position exactly?

Depends on how good the coach is. While KeyFin is right about us not really knowing what happened behind the scenes, I'm pretty sure a coach like Parcells would have had more success convincing Ajayi to get with the program than Gase.

"texanphinatic wrote:

Matt Moore? Color me meh.

the team plays better and way more amped with moore back there, the second half showed that whether or not you agree hes good or not im merely saying the team plays better when hes taking snaps, and the fact cutler had 3 picks and moore is 1 bad safety call from a comeback should auto put him starting this week.

"cbrad wrote:

Depends on how good the coach is. While KeyFin is right about us not really knowing what happened behind the scenes, I'm pretty sure a coach like Parcells would have had more success convincing Ajayi to get with the program than Gase.

That's based on nothing though.

"Fin D wrote:

That's based on nothing though.

No your response is based on nothing.

Parcells was famous for being able to "push the right buttons" and did so differently for different players. There are tons of testimonials to that and maybe you should look that up before claiming what I wrote is "based on nothing".

Anyway.. I can see where this is going: you're going back to your trolling days. Count me out of such a useless debate so go ahead and have your all-so-desired last word.

"cbrad wrote:

No your response is based on nothing.

Parcells was famous for being able to "push the right buttons" and did so differently for different players. There are tons of testimonials to that and maybe you should look that up before claiming what I wrote is "based on nothing".

Anyway.. I can see where this is going: you're going back to your trolling days. Count me out of such a useless debate so go ahead and have your all-so-desired last word.

No it's based on nothing else his teams never would have had to cut/trade people that weren't too old.

Disagreeing with you is not trolling.

"bigballa2102 wrote:

the team plays better and way more amped with moore back there, the second half showed that whether or not you agree hes good or not im merely saying the team plays better when hes taking snaps, and the fact cutler had 3 picks and moore is 1 bad safety call from a comeback should auto put him starting this week.

Oh? Do they? Is that why we got beat 40-0 with Moore in at QB in Baltimore?

I mean, I get what you're saying to an extent, but lets not get carried away here. He's not going to change things much.

"bigballa2102 wrote:

the team plays better and way more amped with moore back there, the second half showed that whether or not you agree hes good or not im merely saying the team plays better when hes taking snaps, and the fact cutler had 3 picks and moore is 1 bad safety call from a comeback should auto put him starting this week.

All of the analyst would agree with you too. Moore should definitely start this week.

"pumpdogs wrote:

Just think if we a had a vision to trade tannehill in last years draft and do whatever it takes to move up to draft wentz instead of moving back for 2 average players.I am not saying we would be 9-1 but the future sure would look brighter than it does now.

Yeah, that’s really farfetched. I don’t know of anybody that thought he’d be this good. But plenty of people would’ve wanted to trade Tannehill.

"brandon27 wrote:

Oh? Do they? Is that why we got beat 40-0 with Moore in at QB in Baltimore?

I mean, I get what you're saying to an extent, but lets not get carried away here. He's not going to change things much.

I know I was seething about this team after that loss and even aimed some disdain at Moore with his picks.

They were playing on a short week with a new starter at QB who's not had any reps with the 1's aside from his comeback win vs. the Jets. Then Gase in a stroke of sheer genius errrrrrrr I mean stupidity decides to scale down the playbook and march him out there with new plays. They were also still hamstrung by Ajayi's insistence on freelancing and not being a legitimate passing threat out of the backfield.

The Ravens kicked their asses, but that was the quintessential overreaction game. How often would they find themselves in that kind of scenario? Not very. We all know Moore's limitations, but at this point it's pretty clear "overall" the offense responds to Moore moreso than Cutler.

"KeyFin wrote:

I thought I was pretty clear- I laid out what Gase did with Ajayi in 2016 and presented the problem leading up to when he was traded. I specifically asked if you don't trade him, then what do you do differently?

I would’ve adapted my offense to be more like the Ground Chuck offense. I would’ve brought in blockers (fullback, tight end, linemen, whoever was available). I’d never run the same play twice unless it was disguised in a different formation. I’d run the damn ball on 3rd and short the vast majority of the time. I’d run the play action and throw bombs with Moore as the starter.

"finsfandan wrote:

Yeah, that’s really farfetched. I don’t know of anybody that thought he’d be this good. But plenty of people would’ve wanted to trade Tannehill.

The eagles did!And they found a way to move all the way down from 14.Because they know what the they are doing.We have no clue.

i wouldnt say our defense was good at all this year we looked decent against shit teams. our defense hasn’t asserted itself in any game IMHO. Burke has to go and gase has to hire accomplished coaches his buddy network sucks.

"Rock Sexton wrote:

I know I was seething about this team after that loss and even aimed some disdain at Moore with his picks.

They were playing on a short week with a new starter at QB who's not had any reps with the 1's aside from his comeback win vs. the Jets. The Gase in a stroke of sheer genius errrrrrrr I mean stupidity decides to scale down the playbook and march him out there with new plays. They were also still hamstrung by Ajayi's insistance on freelancing and not being a legitimate passing threat out of the backfield.

The Ravens kicked their asses, but that was the quintessential overreaction game. How often would they find themselves in that kind of scenario? Not very. We all know Moore's limitations, but at this point it's pretty clear "overall" the offense responds to Moore moreso than Cutler.

I hear ya with all that Rock. I said some of the same things after that game about Moore. Tough spot, short week, etc, etc. However, alot of that game is typical of what you get with Moore from time to time. My issue more so with the comment was how we're simply going to say... ahhh. the team is better when he plays. It's just not really the truth from what we've seen. I get it, there was contributing factors to that Baltimore game, but it's not like Moore hasn't laid stinkers before either.

However, Moore also has a pretty distinct advantage when he comes into a game when the starter goes down. He's good enough to get a defense into trouble. Some backups are capable of just not losing the game... you hope. Moore is good enough to be able to win games, but he's also not good enough to avoid the complete stinker. However, I think when he comes into a game where the D hasn't gameplanned for him at all, he's got an advantage there, I think that's a part of what we see when he comes in. He's got more fire than Cutler, that's for sure, so maybe that helps inspire other guys out there too temporarily.

Either way, I think we can all agree we've seen enough of Jay Cutler, and we should all be able to agree that putting Matt Moore out there right now, really doesn't help the team in the grand scheme of things. Unlikely we make the playoffs given our current record, and future schedule, so what good does playing Moore do? I'm not one to say tank it... NFL players don't believe in that, or think that way either. Especially vets, so I'm not rooting for that. I just think... what's the point? We know what we have in Moore; a capable backup. We know what we have in Cutler; A broadcaster. Neither is going to help this team in the long run, so lets not pretend that because Moore "gives a spark" means that we'd be significantly better.

"brandon27 wrote:

I hear ya with all that Rock. I said some of the same things after that game about Moore. Tough spot, short week, etc, etc. However, alot of that game is typical of what you get with Moore from time to time. My issue more so with the comment was how we're simply going to say... ahhh. the team is better when he plays. It's just not really the truth from what we've seen. I get it, there was contributing factors to that Baltimore game, but it's not like Moore hasn't laid stinkers before either.

However, Moore also has a pretty distinct advantage when he comes into a game when the starter goes down. He's good enough to get a defense into trouble. Some backups are capable of just not losing the game... you hope. Moore is good enough to be able to win games, but he's also not good enough to avoid the complete stinker. However, I think when he comes into a game where the D hasn't gameplanned for him at all, he's got an advantage there, I think that's a part of what we see when he comes in. He's got more fire than Cutler, that's for sure, so maybe that helps inspire other guys out there too temporarily.

Either way, I think we can all agree we've seen enough of Jay Cutler, and we should all be able to agree that putting Matt Moore out there right now, really doesn't help the team in the grand scheme of things. Unlikely we make the playoffs given our current record, and future schedule, so what good does playing Moore do? I'm not one to say tank it... NFL players don't believe in that, or think that way either. Especially vets, so I'm not rooting for that. I just think... what's the point? We know what we have in Moore; a capable backup. We know what we have in Cutler; A broadcaster. Neither is going to help this team in the long run, so lets not pretend that because Moore "gives a spark" means that we'd be significantly better.

We've got vertical threats in Parker and Stills - the latter of which Moore is clearly more capable of hitting deep. Both of those guys are supposed to be integral cogs in the offense. That's the largest and most important difference IMO. With Cutler running the offense you're constantly looking at long dink and dunk drives, which is nearly impossible to maintain.

I just have a hard time saying things definitely won't change when one guy has played most of the season and the other eight quarters of football. It's the element of "chance". Personally I have no desire to watch someone like Doughty at there. At least for the rest of the year I could watch someone who's easy to root for.

"Rock Sexton wrote:

We've got vertical threats in Parker and Stills - the latter of which Moore is clearly more capable of hitting deep. Both of those guys are supposed to be integral cogs in the offense. That's the largest and most important difference IMO. With Cutler running the offense you're constantly looking at long dink and dunk drives, which is nearly impossible to maintain.

I just have a hard time saying things definitely won't change when one guy has played most of the season and the other eight quarters of football. It's the element of "chance". Personally I have no desire to watch someone like Doughty at there. At least for the rest of the year I could watch someone who's easy to root for.

I hear ya, I just don't see the point at this point. Season is pretty much done, so even if we win an extra game or two switching to Moore, Yeah, I'll enjoy those few wins too, but I'd rather see us blow things up on a pretty minor scale, that may not be so minor lol

Let's look at each component -

Tannenbaum D-
He has been able to bring in some good players and make some solid players via the draft, but he has missed too many times. Signing Greg Jennings over Michael Crabtree, sticking with Koa Misi over Zach Brown, and most importantly, failing to address the offensive line are just a few of the many roster mistakes. Moreover, there are a lot of bloated contracts on our roster because of him.

Gase F
I think that it is easy to give him a pass because RT is out for the season, but he hand chose Cutler that was experienced in his system. Despite what our record states, we could very easily be a 1 or 2 win team right now. Last year, we won a lot of close games. Why did we win those games? We road the J-Train to victory. Gase subsequently rides him out of town when things turned sour. Can you imagine what our record would have been last year with out Ajayi? Gase keeps blaming the players because they cannot understand his system. Admittedly, he has scaled back our offense to an overly simplistic offense. Our offensive line has almost no discipline. I would be all about keeping Gase if were playing disciplined football, and the play calling looked good. Even with Cutler, we are not the worst offense in the league. Gase deserves much of the blame.

QB C+

I am a huge RT fan, but even I think that we need to draft a QB (2nd round?) with such a deep draft class. I don't know what to expect with RT being out for almost a year and a half. I think we should look at the Eagles for the model to getting a QB. Remember, they drafted Wentz, signed Bradford and Chase Daniel. Bringing in a plan A, B, and C makes a lot of sense in retrospect.

RB C+
At the onset, this may seem low. Remember, Williams was upset that he was a restricted free agent last year and was late to report. I feel iffy about giving him a second contract. Conceivably, Drake, who has showed explosion, could be the only RB back next year.

WR A-

I do think that this is a solid unit. I am willing to give Parker one more go. He looks so athletic when he is on the field. I get the feeling that once things click, he could be a premiere WR. We need to keep our heart and soul, Landry. Stills has speed to burn.

TE C-
Julius Thomas looks nothing like he did in Denver. I doubt he returns next year. Fasano is old. I wish we used Gray more. This group needs an upgrade.

OL D-
Not only are we bad, but we may need to get worse. Pouncy is expensive and often hurt. James is okay, but will be very expensive. Tunsil needs to improve. This group is undisciplined. No QB would succeed behind this line. No matter who our QB is next year, he cannot survive behind this group.

DL B+
I think that this is the anchor of our defense. Godchaux is showing promise, Suh is elite, and we have gotten decent production out of Hayes. It will be interesting to see if Wake is deemed expendable or not next year.

LB C+
Kiko has looked bad this year, but with Raekwon returning, he may kick out to outside LB. Timmons has been mediocre.

CB C+
Tank and Howard are young. Lippett will be returning, but I think we need to look to improve this group.

S A
McDonald looks massive on the field and is already paying dividends. Between him and Jones, the back end looks good.

Special Teams C+

I would look to upgrade from Haack. I think that the Jakeem Grant experiment is a failure. I would like to see more Drake in the return game. Parkey has been pretty good.

"bigballa2102 wrote:

the team plays better and way more amped with moore back there, the second half showed that whether or not you agree hes good or not im merely saying the team plays better when hes taking snaps, and the fact cutler had 3 picks and moore is 1 bad safety call from a comeback should auto put him starting this week.

Sometimes they do, sure. Especially when comes in as a relief pitcher.

As a starter, color me meh. He's a backup. We are going nowhere with him. If that's what it has come down to, start Fales or Doughty.

"pumpdogs wrote:

The eagles did!And they found a way to move all the way down from 14.Because they know what the they are doing.We have no clue.

They didn't have a real QB on the roster. We had Tannehill. This argument is dumb as fuck.

Now this year? After 2 Tannehill knee surgeries, coming up on the end of the contract, still not really sure what he is? Pull the trigger.

"texanphinatic wrote:

They didn't have a real QB on the roster. We had Tannehill. This argument is dumb as ****.

Now this year? After 2 Tannehill knee surgeries, coming up on the end of the contract, still not really sure what he is? Pull the trigger.

Coming from a guy that was never sold on tannehill I disagree.