Tua WAY ahead on Medical schedule

"djphinfan wrote:

He played at a higher level than tannehill did for 6 years.

I've just had a look on the Bucs forum and the 'Dolphins To Start Ryan Fitzpatrick' thread has just hit the 30 post mark...! :w00t:

"Phin McCool wrote:

I've just had a look on the Bucs forum and the 'Dolphins To Start Ryan Fitzpatrick' thread has just hit the 30 post mark...! :w00t:

What do you mean?

"djphinfan wrote:

What do you mean?

I'll be honest, I didn't really look, I was just joshing. It was a dig at people on forums being utterly obsessed by their team's former players who are now with other franchises.

Of course, I'm not for one minute suggesting that anyone on here is like that.....

"Etrius24 wrote:

I think one of the things we need to look at and take away from Mahomes and the situation in KC.. Is that They had a veteran QB in Smith who was established and could mentor Mahomes. What KC did that season was fine tune the offense Smith had a career year mentoring Mahomes. Smith led the NFL in several important categories... QB rating 104 Interception % 1... He led the NFL in yards per pass at 8.6

The Chiefs worked out all of the kinks... They had the O line performing. They had brought in Electric play makers like Kelce and Hill. And Mahomes got a year to see that offense perform like a well oiled machine. He got to study the offense working perfectly. He was not put into a situation where he has to learn how to be an NFL QB while the team is trying to learn how to fine tune their offense. It eliminated other variables and other growing pains that could have a negative effect on him and or slow his growth and development.

Miami has the established QB that Tua can learn from. Miami has issues to work out ( Offensive line. ) We do have good skill players... But we are learning a new offense... If Tua sits this year and takes over a year from now Every other player on the offense will be experienced in this offense and the only Variable then will be Tua... A well groomed Tua that is confident and ready to lead.

I am not against Tua starting for us this year... There is an excellent argument for him to sit though

I agree with this 100%. With the few rare exceptions, the one thing that great quarterbacks have in common is they took over established offenses in which the only missing piece was the quarterback position.

I like Fitzmagic just fine... More than his stat sheet he was the MVP of the team last year because of his leadership... He took a beating especially early on when the team was historically bad. He took the hits and kept going out there. I have a lot of respect for Fitz

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

I think Tua should see the field but mostly in mop up duty in games that have been decided. Also, only when he is healthy enough to do so.

I would add, only games that we’re comfortably winning, as throwing a kid into a situation where the team is getting beaten badly is not a good idea, especially if the OLine is struggling.

"Etrius24 wrote:

I think one of the things we need to look at and take away from Mahomes and the situation in KC.. Is that They had a veteran QB in Smith who was established and could mentor Mahomes. What KC did that season was fine tune the offense Smith had a career year mentoring Mahomes. Smith led the NFL in several important categories... QB rating 104 Interception % 1... He led the NFL in yards per pass at 8.6

The Chiefs worked out all of the kinks... They had the O line performing. They had brought in Electric play makers like Kelce and Hill. And Mahomes got a year to see that offense perform like a well oiled machine. He got to study the offense working perfectly. He was not put into a situation where he has to learn how to be an NFL QB while the team is trying to learn how to fine tune their offense. It eliminated other variables and other growing pains that could have a negative effect on him and or slow his growth and development.

Miami has the established QB that Tua can learn from. Miami has issues to work out ( Offensive line. ) We do have good skill players... But we are learning a new offense... If Tua sits this year and takes over a year from now Every other player on the offense will be experienced in this offense and the only Variable then will be Tua... A well groomed Tua that is confident and ready to lead.

I am not against Tua starting for us this year... There is an excellent argument for him to sit though

And if Tua sits this season, we will have had another year to improve the positions around him, which will, in turn, help to make things easier for him.

"KeyFin wrote:

I agree as well except to say "If we're winning with Fitz or Rosen..." If Fitz plays bad/goes down early, then I'd prefer Rosen to get a 2nd tryout instead of rushing Tua in there too quickly.

Oh I agree, I don't think we've seen the last of Josh Rosen.

"ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:

Oh I agree, I don't think we've seen the last of Josh Rosen.

IMO Rosen has some accuracy and processing issues that will probably prevent him from ever being a top tier QB. He just doesn't seem to learn systems quickly despite his alleged intelligence. But if he hangs around the league for a long enough career (I could easily see him retire to pursue other interests), I could see him being one of those guys that comes in and shines after a starter goes down. I don't think he could do that yet though. I think it would be when he's on that second contract, if it happens.

"rafael wrote:

IMO Rosen has some accuracy and processing issues that will probably prevent him from ever being a top tier QB. He just doesn't seem to learn systems quickly despite his alleged intelligence. But if he hangs around the league for a long enough career (I could easily see him retire to pursue other interests), I could see him being one of those guys that comes in and shines after a starter goes down. I don't think he could do that yet though. I think it would be when he's on that second contract, if it happens.

We just do not know yet.

Rosen was put in a terrible position and took a beating... Not the kind of thing you want a young inexperienced QB to go through.

Flores does not bullshit or play games... He has no problem cutting players that do not fit in and work hard. ( Taco ) He has had the front office ship talented players out of here... ( Minkah, Tunsil ) He kept Rosen... He has praised Rosen and stated that he has shown consistent and considerable improvement.

It is a complicated mess now that we drafted Tua... But if Rosen did not show Flores something that would lead him to believe he turned a corner and has a future... I believe he would no longer still be on this football team.

"Etrius24 wrote:

We just do not know yet.

Rosen was put in a terrible position and took a beating... Not the kind of thing you want a young inexperienced QB to go through.

Flores does not bull**** or play games... He has no problem cutting players that do not fit in and work hard. ( Taco ) He has had the front office ship talented players out of here... ( Minkah, Tunsil ) He kept Rosen... He has praised Rosen and stated that he has shown consistent and considerable improvement.

It is a complicated mess now that we drafted Tua... But if Rosen did not show Flores something that would lead him to believe he turned a corner and has a future... I believe he would no longer still be on this football team.

Rosen worked hard and was not a malcontent or complainer and more importantly he still has value. It would have been stupid of Flores to just cut Rosen or to do anything other than praise him as long as he was working hard and not complaining. I see that as more likely than the belief that he has a future here.

"Etrius24 wrote:

We just do not know yet.

Rosen was put in a terrible position and took a beating... Not the kind of thing you want a young inexperienced QB to go through.

Flores does not bull**** or play games... He has no problem cutting players that do not fit in and work hard. ( Taco ) He has had the front office ship talented players out of here... ( Minkah, Tunsil ) He kept Rosen... He has praised Rosen and stated that he has shown consistent and considerable improvement.

It is a complicated mess now that we drafted Tua... But if Rosen did not show Flores something that would lead him to believe he turned a corner and has a future... I believe he would no longer still be on this football team.

I feel badly for Rosen. He was drafted into a dumpster fire of a team in Phoenix and had zero chance of succeeding, then traded to a team that, at the time was a dumpster fire of a team. The kid was doomed to fail.

Once upon a time, it was common for a team to keep 3 quarterbacks on its roster. That's just not the case any longer so I don't see Rosen with a future here in Miami. The only question is where does he go?

Rosen needs to go to a team that is developed and has a quarterback in the twilight of his career. Green Bay would be a viable option, maybe even Indianapolis. As great as Rodgers is, he doesn't have many days left...neither does Rivers.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

I feel badly for Rosen. He was drafted into a dumpster fire of a team in Phoenix and had zero chance of succeeding, then traded to a team that, at the time was a dumpster fire of a team. The kid was doomed to fail.

Once upon a time, it was common for a team to keep 3 quarterbacks on its roster. That's just not the case any longer so I don't see Rosen with a future here in Miami. The only question is where does he go?

Rosen needs to go to a team that is developed and has a quarterback in the twilight of his career. Green Bay would be a viable option, maybe even Indianapolis. As great as Rodgers is, he doesn't have many days left...neither does Rivers.

It depends on your opinion of him as a prospect. I had him rated as a 2nd round prospect coming out. I felt he had some issues that he was unlikely to overcome at the next level. Specifically, lack of consistent accuracy and slow processing. In the college film I felt he was late on throws far too often. The argument was that it was b/c he had to change systems multiple times so he never got to learn a system fully. IMO that probably means he doesn't have a high football IQ. (For comparison, Tua changed systems 3 times in 3 years and didn't have those issues. Rosen may well have a higher IQ than Tua, but my guess is that his football IQ is much, much lower). So I don't think that should be used as an excuse. It's actually evidence of a deeper issue.

This continued in the pros, both the system changes and the accuracy/processing issues. With any draft QB prospect, you're just playing the odds. Most will not succeed. Almost every prospect needs certain surroundings to have success and hide their weaknesses. Some need less help and/or are easier to build around. The less help they need (and therefore more likely to succeed), the higher I'm willing to take them. I did not believe that Rosen was likely to be successful, at least not on his first (or maybe even his second contract) b/c his issues rarely get better in the pros unless you have a very raw and inexperienced QB. Rosen wasn't that. He was young but he'd been a multi-year starter in HS and college. He was a touted prospect coming out of HS and had been privileged enough to be able to attend many QB camps. This guy had had a lot of coaching from some very respected coaches. He was pretty polished and my feeling was that those issues were most likely on him and not likely to improve anytime soon. I was willing to go with a 2nd rounder just b/c the position is so important, our need was so great and you just have o keep trying until you find that QB.

So IMO Rosen was lucky to get over-drafted and get a ton of money. I don't think he was likely to succeed anyways. He was lucky to land in some bad situations b/c then his lack of success will always be seen by some as somebody else's fault. I don't feel badly for Rosen. I think he's been very fortunate and will end up having a great life. His top 10 selection will probably result in a relatively long career. Probably as long as he wants it as some will keep saying, "he was a top 10 pick for a reason" (as if that implies it was a good reason). Back-up QB is a pretty sweet gig. A bunch of fans usually love you and you escape most of those hits that leave so many players hobbled physically and mentally in their old age. He may even have a small flash of success if he lands in a good situation after he's been in the league for awhile. Or he may leave with his riches and go become a lawyer or doctor or whatever he wants to do.

I can't understand people's idea to dump Rosen since we have Tua. I'll remind folks that we picked up an extra 2nd rounder to trade for Rosen, essentially making him free. He's only owed $2M a year as well and he's an excellent prospect that's younger than Joe Burrow. People have been BEGGING Miami to bring in young prospects and carry them on the roster- and now that we have two of them, you want to dump one? There's zero sense in doing that since Rosen is a value whether he's starting or not.

Additionally, it's not a given that Tua is our future long-term starter. We all want him to be, of course, but he could get injured or simply end up being a bust...we never know until we actually know. So hedging our bets with Rosen on the cheap is a very smart move for the next few seasons, and it's still possible that he's actually the long-term starter. Right now we have two chances of having a future franchise quarterback on our roster, and the last I checked 2 is always better than 1. So have some patience with the kid whether he's getting playing time or not.

"KeyFin wrote:

I can't understand people's idea to dump Rosen since we have Tua. I'll remind folks that we picked up an extra 2nd rounder to trade for Rosen, essentially making him free. He's only owed $2M a year as well and he's an excellent prospect that's younger than Joe Burrow. People have been BEGGING Miami to bring in young prospects and carry them on the roster- and now that we have two of them, you want to dump one? There's zero sense in doing that since Rosen is a value whether he's starting or not.

Additionally, it's not a given that Tua is our future long-term starter. We all want him to be, of course, but he could get injured or simply end up being a bust...we never know until we actually know. So hedging our bets with Rosen on the cheap is a very smart move for the next few seasons, and it's still possible that he's actually the long-term starter. Right now we have two chances of having a future franchise quarterback on our roster, and the last I checked 2 is always better than 1. So have some patience with the kid whether he's getting playing time or not.

I don't recall anybody saying we should dump Rosen?

"rafael wrote:

I don't recall anybody saying we should dump Rosen?

I would have. No QB since 1978 in the database I have (which admittedly is missing a few QB's) has ever had his first 16 games starting all with below average passer rating. That's how anomalous the situation is.

I totally agree with KeyFin that it's better to have more prospects on the roster, but that prospect doesn't have to be Rosen. We would have been better off drafting someone else with a low round pick IMO if all you want is another low probability prospect.

"cbrad wrote:

I would have. No QB since 1978 in the database I have (which admittedly is missing a few QB's) has ever had his first 16 games starting all with below average passer rating. That's how anomalous the situation is.

I totally agree with KeyFin that it's better to have more prospects on the roster, but that prospect doesn't have to be Rosen. We would have been better off drafting someone else with a low round pick IMO if all you want is another low probability prospect.

I was firmly against trading for Rosen. I don't agree with the idea that he was "basically free". We traded down in the 2nd in a separate trade. We traded a 2nd and a 5th for him and that 2nd we used probably meant we missed on the player we wanted who was taken by NE and has played well in a similar system. But at this point that's a sunk cost. He's basically a third QB for us now and I didn't then and don't now believe he's likely to ever be a quality starter, but the perception of him being the victim of poor situations and the fact that he's relatively cheap for us gives him value. I only dump him if his value is lower than another player we want to keep. In a non-covid season I wouldn't have been surprised if most teams kept only two QBs on the roster. Right now though I expect teams will take different approaches. Maybe some team with high expectations for this season gets wiped out and they get desperate enough to overpay for Rosen?

We paid almost nothing for Rosen and the Cardinals are paying almost all of his salary. It is a no lose low risk move.

That said the team was a dumpster fire especially early last season and Rosen got the shit kicked out of him.

Much like the Tannehill debate... Many people did not ever see him succeeding and leading a team like he did last season when he was in terrible situations in Miami.

Maybe Rosen does suck... But when you have a green as piss 21 year old QB out there running for his life getting hit every play and getting the shit kicked out of him... It is pretty hard for that 21 year old to succeed.

Clearly Tua should be the first focus for the future... But I really think that Flores and company saw something in Rosen.

Flores had no issue getting Harris and Taco out of here. There was no hesitation to ship Minkah away either.

IMHO if they did not see improvement in the kid and the right attitude and work ethic he would already be gone...

Remember even though the offers were on the low end... Several teams asked about Rosen at the draft wanting to trade for him.... Miami said no. If they did not see something they would have dumped him for a 6th or 7th round pick like they did with Harris.

"rafael wrote:

I don't recall anybody saying we should dump Rosen?

Several here have expressed that and made the case that now's the best time to get value from him in a trade. Others mentioned trading him at the end of last season or on draft day once we landed Tua.

To switch back to this thread's original topic, it's great news that they're saying Tua is "miraculously ahead of schedule". But in the grand scheme of things it means nothing and could be true or 100% false...we just don't know. As that news article said, it's a turn-off for teams to hear a guy is on schedule for recovery...they want them to be well ahead to sensationalize the outlook just like all media does with everything these days.

I really hope Tua is the long-term answer, but I'm not betting against Rosen either because we have that two-horse race. The goal is for at least one of them to develop and it's an awesome problem to have, regardless whether Tua is ahead of schedule or not. The "Rona" basically bought him an extra three months to rehab so that's worked in his favor and the team's favor...I can't wait for camps to finally start!

"Etrius24 wrote:

We paid almost nothing for Rosen and the Cardinals are paying almost all of his salary. It is a no lose low risk move.

That said the team was a dumpster fire especially early last season and Rosen got the **** kicked out of him.

Much like the Tannehill debate... Many people did not ever see him succeeding and leading a team like he did last season when he was in terrible situations in Miami.

Maybe Rosen does suck... But when you have a green as piss 21 year old QB out there running for his life getting hit every play and getting the **** kicked out of him... It is pretty hard for that 21 year old to succeed.

Clearly Tua should be the first focus for the future... But I really think that Flores and company saw something in Rosen.

Flores had no issue getting Harris and Taco out of here. There was no hesitation to ship Minkah away either.

IMHO if they did not see improvement in the kid and the right attitude and work ethic he would already be gone...

Remember even though the offers were on the low end... Several teams asked about Rosen at the draft wanting to trade for him.... Miami said no. If they did not see something they would have dumped him for a 6th or 7th round pick like they did with Harris.

I think what they see is more value to us than a 6th or 7th round pick. Which I agree with. We have a shitty OL we added a bunch of draft picks and FAs with out long track records to. We have a 38 year old starting QB with an injury history and reckless play-style and rookie QB coming off of a catastrophic college injury. I don't equate that with them seeing him as a potential future starter.

And don't fall in to the mistake of assuming any QB in a bad situation can have a Tannehill like season. It's about evaluating the QB in isolation. Tannehill showed consistent skills regardless of the results. That's why you can't look at stats for those answers. Rosen, in isolation, showed the same consistent issues for 5 seasons now. And they are issues that have proven to rarely be resolved. He's had some decent stat games and a ton of bad ones, but that's more the result of luck or other players making plays. He's been the same guy. Of course with more experience he'll have more of those plays that he's practiced a ton and will be better at, but he's not going from one the worst starting QBs ever to Aaron Rodgers. More realistically he's going from worst to a guy you feel comfortable filling in a couple of games for you. That's where his cheap contract brings us value.

Rosen may or may not be garbage.... With Tannehill he got consistent playing time over a few year period where we could see improvement

Rosen has not had that opportunity as of yet

Until Rosen gets that chance we really do not have anything to gauge his future on.

The Rosen question is an interesting one. As was pointed out, the Cardinals are the ones paying most of his salary so it's not like he's costing us a lot of money. Additionally let's be realistic. Fitzpatrick ain't no spring chicken so his days in Miami are certainly numbered, be it one more season or two more seasons. It appears to me that Flores is looking LONG term and building a team to last for the next decade, not the next year or two.

As I stated earlier, it was once commonplace for a team to carry 3 quarterbacks on its roster. Now the general rule of thumb is 2. If we don't trade Rosen, that should be a tell that Flores sees him as a viable option, even if it's merely back-up behind Tagovailoa which we are going to need once Fitzpatrick leaves the team.

If we trade him, then it was a failed experiment that really didn't cost us much of anything. We rolled the dice on a former 1st round draft pick whom we rescued from a dumpster fire of a team and gave him a shot on a team in which we pulled the fire extinguisher out on out own dumpster fire.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

The Rosen question is an interesting one. As was pointed out, the Cardinals are the ones paying most of his salary so it's not like he's costing us a lot of money. Additionally let's be realistic. Fitzpatrick ain't no spring chicken so his days in Miami are certainly numbered, be it one more season or two more seasons. It appears to me that Flores is looking LONG term and building a team to last for the next decade, not the next year or two.

As I stated earlier, it was once commonplace for a team to carry 3 quarterbacks on its roster. Now the general rule of thumb is 2. If we don't trade Rosen, that should be a tell that Flores sees him as a viable option, even if it's merely back-up behind Tagovailoa which we are going to need once Fitzpatrick leaves the team.

If we trade him, then it was a failed experiment that really didn't cost us much of anything. We rolled the dice on a former 1st round draft pick whom we rescued from a dumpster fire of a team and gave him a shot on a team in which we pulled the fire extinguisher out on out own dumpster fire.

In the COVID era, I can see teams carrying 3 quarterbacks just like I can see them carrying an extra kicker (who probably plays another position as well). I mean, if a player is running a fever it's basically a mandatory 2-week suspension/quarantine with pay, so teams will have to be more versatile in filling out rosters.

"KeyFin wrote:

In the COVID era, I can see teams carrying 3 quarterbacks just like I can see them carrying an extra kicker (who probably plays another position as well). I mean, if a player is running a fever it's basically a mandatory 2-week suspension/quarantine with pay, so teams will have to be more versatile in filling out rosters.

You make an interesting point. In this age of coronavirus, I can see the logic of the NFL allowing teams to carry more than their 53 man active roster plus practice squad.

It would make perfect sense to temporarily allow teams to carry up to 10 extra players on their practice squad.

"Etrius24 wrote:

Rosen may or may not be garbage.... With Tannehill he got consistent playing time over a few year period where we could see improvement

Rosen has not had that opportunity as of yet

Until Rosen gets that chance we really do not have anything to gauge his future on.

I just don't agree that three years in college and one in the pros of consistent starting and a couple of starts in Miami equals "not having anything to gauge his future on".