I'll address something first and then make another reply later.

This is just not true. Since 2001 the Pats have had a defense ranked out of the top 10 only 3 times. In those three times they failed to make the playoffs (17th), lost the divisional round in the playoffs (17th), lost Super Bowl (15th). They have won 5 Super Bowls with a 5th, 1st, 2nd, 8th, and 1st ranked defense. They have lost 2 Super Bowls with a 4th and 15th ranked defense. In 4 out of 5 Super Bowl wins the defense was the better unit.

In a thread around here I posted what the Pats do when Brady plays badly. In order to save time, they win. Brady plays great, they win. Brady plays average, they win. Brady plays poorly, they win.

While I believe that it's easier to win with an elite QB, that elite QB will not mask a poor team. See Marino. See Rodgers. See Brees. See P. Manning. etc

 

There's so many points you made here that left me scratching my head, that I don't even know where to start.

You're mentioning teams trading up to take a QB early. Do you not remember where we selected Tannehill? Awfully high pick. You have to see that through. You may feel that's taken too long, obviously given the financial investment the team has made, they don't. So, we clearly did exactly what you're saying the rest of the league is doing to get a QB. Only thing was, we didn't have to trade up to do it. Want to know why? Our team was terrible. We were awful enough that we didn't have to trade up. You see teams like KC, Houston, Tenn, etc, etc trading up because they've already got an established competitive roster. When you have made the financial commitment to a QB, that they have made to Tannehill, while still rebuilding the roster from the mess it was, you simply can't afford that financial commitment, then trading away the picks you're going to use to improve the whole roster, to hopefully improve the QB position.

What you're asking for in a QB.. a Brady. Guess what... They're pretty rare. Pretty impossible to find really. You think all these teams you cited that traded up and around the draft to take a QB are going to find a Brady, or a Manning. Got news for ya... It's not that simple. Take a look at how many of those early QB's actually pan out and turn into superstars. It's not a given.

NE can have success still without the QB because across the board they have built a solid staff, and solid roster that can withstand injuries, etc, etc. You can do that when you have stability. We haven't had any form of stability in years. This roster has constantly been turning over, consistently poor drafting leading to constantly adding veterans, because we've drafted so poorly. Poor decisions to evaluate free agents, our own players, etc. etc. NE can afford to let a player like Collins walk last year, because they're depth is solid, and a good fit to them, and they're well prepared (whether that's done legally or not, is debatable, sure).

Of course the team is going to expect more out of him and his play, and they should. Every year, regardless. However, they should be, and will be expecting that out of everyone around him as well. That's just how this works. To say He has to have 21 point 4th quarters, he has to go 6-0 or 5-1 in the division, that's just being irresponsible, and irrational. There's so many other moving parts at work here. I'm not disagreeing with you, not in general anyways. Of course they'll want more from him, but then to go to the extreme of it's all on him, that's just... irrational IMO.

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion, and again, I think you're right in some area's, but a lot of this rant is just, quite a bit off base to me. Especially this...

Anyone off the street can accomplish what Tannehill has already? OK man... get yourself a roster spot, and suit up. Let's test your theory, and lets bet somewhere in the neighborhood of... everything to your name on this that you're wrong. Cold hard truths, man.

 

I don't get it. I'm not trying to pick apart your post, but how can you claim to be a Huge fan, and then pretty much claim he is dirt at the QB position, and the team should have already moved on from him?

You can still hope the kid gets better, and even be willing to give him another shot, all without being a "huge fan". But, I would assume a huge fan at least sees Tannehill as good to great, and WANTS the guy on your team...

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "huge fan".

 

Paragraphs are your friend, dirtylandry. Seriously, it would make it easier to read long posts like that.

Tanny is in his second year with a good coach, the OL looks to be decent, the skill positions around him are filled with good-great players. This year will tell us what his ceiling actually is.

BTW, there is no way Brady lasts another 4-5 years. I don't doubt he wants to play that long, but the body starts breaking down and he simply won't be able to take the hits and keep getting back up. That said, another 2-3 years seems possible.

 

I looked up some more stats.

Brady's record vs the AFC East:

He went 6-0 twice
5-1 five times
4-2 7 times

(I didn't count last season because he missed games against AFC East opponents)

Expecting him to go 6-0 or 5-1 every year is asking a lot.

 

You talk more about the Patriots than I do. I think you secretly love or admire them. Like the schoolyard girl who's San to her crush ;)

 

you don't sound like a ''huge'' tannehill fan..just saying dirty.

bottom line, he needs to do what the coaches have told him what he's not doing and what he's needs to get better at..Gase and Clyde have talked about it.

''be more aggressive'', convert situations at all costs, with all means necessary, make some ''off schedule plays'', meaning, use your ''arm AND legs''...direct from the coaches and my mouth.

this criticism is about him being the best qb he can be...The team is improving around him, and this is not a situation where he can stay the same and just expect better results because of the improved variables, he needs to get better individually, quicker with his feet, more anticipatory and agressive with his instincts, the use of arm and shoulder deeks to manipulate defenders, be aggressive with your legs, for example {when its third and four, and you see a lane, AGGRESSIVELY!! consciously! run for the first down, and just don't care about what anyone thinks, thinking that you bailed on the scripted play is BS} jUST DO IT..

''theres a lot of players that know how to play, but there are few that know how to win''...marcus Allen.

 

It seems as though you're expecting another Brady to just waltz through the door. Why don't we look at the real reason the Pats are successful....Bellicheat and Brady stabilize that entire organization. Aside from the fact they've been together for closing in on 2 decades, you're talking about the best coach and one of the top 5 qbs of all time. Bellicheat continuously keeps teams off balance with their ever changing week to week gameplan. Brady is certainly a huge part of that success but Bellicheat is the one continuously helping the Malcolm Butlers of the world become huge stars. This guy routinely plugs in and coachs up players that appear mediocre at best to fit his system. Instead of awaiting for the next Brady, hope Adam Gase is finally a long term answer as a coach.

 

This^^

Coaching is 95% of NFL success.

 

Personally, I'm both optimistic and pessimistic at the same time.

On one hand, we've seen enough improvement in Tannehill and an actual demonstration this team with him (+ a good backup) can make the playoffs despite a slew of injuries that it's realistic to assume a team around Tannehill can be built that is competitive each year and makes the playoffs often.

On the other hand.. look at all the recent SB champs! In the great majority of cases you either had an elite QB or a good QB play like an elite QB in the playoffs. The only exceptions: an absolutely suffocating and near league-best defense.

I'm not sure what allowed Matt Ryan to suddenly play like he did last year, but you either have to hope something like that happens to Tannehill or we need a top 3 defense. Neither looks likely.

So I guess if you want a playoff team I'm optimistic Tannehill is sufficient, but if you want a SB win I'm pessimistic Tannehill is the QB we need.

 

Dirty, you have a wealth of opinions. lol.

It's actually very good for these mains. You are keeping a lot of discussion going in here and I'm appreciative (seriously).

 

I told him the same thing. I don't always agree with him, but at least he comes across as someone who is willing to change his mind if presented with differing facts/proof. He's a good poster.

 

We don't need a perfect team for Tannehill to thrive. We need an average team.

And stop saying stuff like a guy off the street could do what Tannehill has done. That is extremist hyperbole.

 

And very inaccurate. It is almost like people forget what we went through after Marino. Either the quarterbacks were highly mediocre and holding the team back (Fiedler, Huard, Frerotte, Moore), a good to great quarterback but made of paper (Pennington, Green), or complete total **** (Feeley, Lucas, Griese, Rosenfels, Harrington, Culpepper, Lemon, Beck, Henne, Thigpen)

We have had 16 quarterbacks who have started for Miami since Marino who have not done nearly as well as Tannehill.

I am grateful for Tannehill for stopping the *Quarterbacks since Marino* list at the beginning of each Dolphins broadcast. Is Tannehill a perfect top 5 quarterback? No, he is not right now. I think he can be under the right circumstances. IMO, the fact that he came out of a draft class that was just ridiculous he gets overshadowed. If he came out during the Ponder/Locker draft class people would be talking about him higher.

I am all for upgrading any position and Tannehill is a player who can be upgraded, however, it would be very difficult to accomplish. Miami has 16 quarterbacks as proof as how hard it is to accomplish. The Browns have had over 20 that prove how hard it is to accomplish.

 

But, that is exactly what many on here are saying. They are saying it is not Tannehills fault, it is everything around him. If they would just pick up their end of the bargain Tannehill would be great.

 

Dirty, I think your memory of the Philben era has softened over time.

Remember when they would telegraph pass and run plays at the line during the Sherman era. Seriously, who does that? No one saw the problem with essentially telling defenses if it was a pass/run play.

Remember how they wouldn't let RT audible at the line? Whatever brilliant play they called was the play come hell or high water.

Remember when they would limit the amount of touches Miller would get for no apparent reason? Look at Gase. He will give the rock to Ajayi as long as it is working.

Do you remember Jeff Ireland?

The entire 2013 draft class is no longer on the team. Just think about that. Not one player was even worth keeping around.

Remember when Ireland broke the bank for Mike Wallace? It is not like Miami wasn't a good spot for him. He has bounced around the league ever since.

Brian Hartline was probably one of our better picks in the Ireland era.

Here is a link to every draft pick Jeff Ireland made. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1481460-miami-dolphins-grading-all-of-jeff-irelands-drafts

Not only are an overwhelming majority of these players not stars for the Dolphins, many are out of the league.

Simply put, we were not bringing the talent for most of his tenure, and Philben certainly was not the mastermind to overcome the deficiencies of his players.

In all fairness, last year was probably the only real season that we can judge RT. Criticizing Mike Tannenbaum is always good for a few likes on this board, but RT had a nice set of WRs to throw to. Picking up Cameron obviously didn't work, but there were serviceable backups in place. The offensive line (after the departure of Turner and Thomas) was respectable. Gase worked with RT and built in the ability to audible. Most notably, Gase never overcomplicated things. When the run game was working, he kept running.

Really, after the Tennessee game, RT looked really good. Again, in fairness, you can expect there to a build learning curve to any system, and it took time to weed out Thomas and Turner. Ryan threw 13 TDs and 5 INTs after the Tennessee game, and three of those INTs took place in one particularly bad outing vs. Baltimore.

I really think it is time to be optimistic.

 

anyone who thinks Ryan's game is good enough to win a championship is not someone I would listen to very much.

I don't think the ones that are standing up for Ryan are saying he doesn't need to improve..I think its the amount of the discrepancy that gets us to debate about it so much.

 

If Ryan Tannehill had been drafted by the Pats, he would be a Super Bowl winning QB.

 

hmmmm Dano...so your saying that Ryan is as good as Brady basically right?

 

I think Brady's one of the best ever (if not the best) and Tannehill is just a bit above average, but I do think it's realistic to think that Tannehill as Belichick's QB over a 15 year span would have won possibly one SB. Have to remember, for 3 out of NE's 5 SB wins they had either the #1 or #2 ranked defense. It's realistic IMO.

 

My biggest concern about the Tannehill era is that there has been so much other bad happening with the team that it has been very difficult to geta handle on who Tannehill really is.

I like the good parts of whatI see. I like that he has shown continuous improvement. I don't like that questionable coaching has handcuffed Tannehill - commitment to bad OL players, lack of commitment to the run, too predictable coaching.

I hate that we're going into year six and no one really knows for sure what Tannehill's floor or ceiling is.

 

No, he is not saying that at all.

 

I am sick of saying it, but how the hell can we call anyone 'the best' when we have no idea how much the repeated, consistent, years and years of cheating he WAS caught for, PLUS the cheating he WASN'T caught for, helped him?

 

Damn straight, Bpk.

 

Ohhhh Ryan.

Please just come out and play like you did in the middle of last season so we can move on to debating something else.

 

I think calling him "the best" can be argued on many levels. His ball placement and ability to read a defense is certainly the best Ive ever seen. And no, i don't think it is because his helmet is left on during the play :chuckle:..

 

Because the evidence of cheating so far doesn't explain 5 Super Bowl wins. You do realize it is extremely rare to see an NFL commentator NOT consider Brady one of the best ever. It's widely recognized he's a serious candidate for GOAT.

Of course you're free to convict him on evidence you wish we had, but I'll convict him only on evidence we actually do have, and that evidence isn't producing 5 Super Bowls (seriously.. you think NE suddenly won in the 2nd half of the SB last year because of some unspecified cheating they couldn't pull off in the 1st half???)

btw.. the only statistical evidence I can find for something odd occurring is that abnormally low fumbling rate from 2007 among outdoor teams. MAYBE that's worth one win extra per year. Anyway.. I'd rather wait for more damning evidence (which I seriously hope someday emerges.. you know it does happen, like we saw with Lance Armstrong).

 

You just can't separate enough of the cheating out for me to call him the best of anything, except at cheating and winning.

I think he is a good (who would never have become a HoF level) QB who shows how much a very good coach (Belichick is an amazing coach but still a dick), and systematic cheating can all add up to wins.

In terms of rating how good they are at winning I'd say....
Tom Brady as a QB 8/10
Bill Bellic*ck as a Coach 9/10
Cheating As A Strategy 10/10

 

It's not binary. He's not either the GOAT or a player who deserves no credit. It's not "He deserves all those Super Bowls" or "He deserves none."

Maybe he wins 1 Superbowl without the cheating. And plays less impressively a bunch of other times. Is he the GOAT then? Nope.

Maybe he wins 3 Superbowls with no cheating.

The point is you can't know. I am sure he is at least a good QB. How good? I have no clue, thanks to him and Belichick

But you CAN know this:
- If they have been caught cheating repeatedly (and I don't mean just twice) then there is more than what we know, or you're being naive.

And no one cheats over and over and over if they don;t think it actually helps them win.

 

Like I said.. people know all that and STILL consider him a serious candidate for GOAT. It's not just me, and it's precisely because it's hard to look at their play on the field and see how the hell they are cheating their way to 5 Super Bowls.

The video taping isn't doing that. I mean it was the specific location of the video taping that was the problem, not that they were looking at tape of the opponent. And then they're punished with Brady being out 4 games and then win the SB lol.

Anyway.. it doesn't matter. Believe what you want, but it's a near consensus in the NFL today that Brady is a serious candidate for GOAT and I think that's fair.

 

Don't agree on it being fair, but it's reality. My energy is better spent on other things, like rooting for our Dolphins to beat the Pats.

By the way, Shula doesn't have much regard for the Pats cheating either.

 

I no longer consider Rice to be the greatest receiver of all time, since he admitted to using stickum.

Just the same, I will never consider Brady to be the greatest because of his team's repeated cheating.

 

Maybe it can be explained this way. Consider yourself a huge fan, as most people on fan forums are. Now look back at some notable QB's we have had since Marino. Did we all have to think Ray Lucas was a great QB to be a fan? Joey Harrington? Do we need to make the case for Cam Cameron as a Hall of Fame coach in order to be called fans? Do you see any of those people as good to great and wish they were still on our team? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I am just trying to show that a person can be a huge fan without believing that every player on the team is great.

 

Without cheating, nobody would have remembered Belichick's name (as well as Brady's). He was horrible in Cleveland (inheriting a decent team at the time BTW) and before they ironed out the spying system in NE.

 

You also are not allowed to look at the defense and pipe the coverage into your QB's helmet via a second receiver that isn't cut off at the NFL ruled 15 second mark before the clock runs. Brady knows who will be open and I think you can see that on the field. You can say it is short routes and great route runners or great coaching if you want, and yes they do have to run crisp routes, but look at how often they have guys wide open compared to the rest of the league. Is the rest of the league that far behind in route running and coaching? For 17 years? No way. Ask Doug Flutie about the day he accidentally picked up Brady's helmet on the sideline and listened to Ernie Adams giving all of the info a QB would want and more. Sure they didn't make the playoffs the year Brady got hurt, but they still won 11 games with a high school QB who was never anything great when he left. Okay I'm exaggerating, Matt Cassel completed 20 passes in his college career. Look at how an assistant DB pylon boy became what announcers like to call a great offensive mind overnight. Then when he went to Denver to cash in for a few easy million as a head coach he sucks like almost every other former New England coach and, whoops, gets caught doing what? Spying, when supposedly the Patriots had stopped after their first slap on the wrist. Why continue to cheat if you have learned to win fairly in New England? Because it has never been done, that's why. McDaniel knew the only way to bring the "Patriot Way" to Denver was to bring Spygate, because that IS the Patriot way. Look at all of the evidence. There's much more BTW, but I know I bore people with details on this. As far as a suspension in September for a very veteran QB, I consider that (another) slap on the wrist. Thanks again, Roger. Why would anybody who cheats stop cheating when they gain fame and fortune, 5 Superbowl wins, a record winning percentage, annual playoff appearances and division titles and enjoy (falsely) being called the greatest coach, QB and franchise ever, because they might lose a draft pick every 7 or 8 years, or get a month suspension at the least important part of the year, or lose a million and a half in a billion dollar industry?
Sorry for the rant guys, but in my world cheating is bull**** and that is why I consider the cheatriots to be laughable. Even my neighbor who has been a Pats fan for his whole life gets it. He finds it funny and just enjoys the games, but he agrees, they cheat constantly.