X Extension DONE!

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

They might move some money from the back of his deal up, knowing that they'll drop him or resign him before the last couple of years come. His money after 2021 is relatively low, as is his cap hit. He and the team are both aware that he can be dropped after this season with little consequence. That's probably why he's holding out.

The only problems with redoing his deal are how they impact 2021's cap and whether the team wants to encourage other players to pull this card in the future.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/xavien-howard-18986/

I don't think anything they will do with X will prevent a player in X's position not to "pull this card."

It is a weird position that can really only happy with a few positions and generally will not happen.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I don't think anything they will do with X will prevent a player in X's position not to "pull this card."

It is a weird position that can really only happy with a few positions and generally will not happen.

Timing is everything. Looking at his deal makes it clear that if he gets hurt this year, he's going to lose a lot of money because we can walk away from him easily. Since he has an injury history, the team won't want to redo the deal because of that alone. This is going to be interesting.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Yeah, I agree with you. With that being said, if we can't come to a happy medium, I presume we won't jettison him for less than a deal that returns assets that will strengthen some other area of the team. Atlanta got fleeced in the Julio deal because thanks to pandemic-related contraction of the salary cap, they had to take what was available to sign their rookies. Miami's not in that situation. I'd expect a first rounder for X AND a starter at another position.

In the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL, the team that trades a superstar always loses the trade. But I'd hope we can limit the loss somehow. But I agree with you. If we can keep him, that would be the best move.

I would make him sit.Noway he is going to give up 12 mil this season by sitting home.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Timing is everything. Looking at his deal makes it clear that if he gets hurt this year, he's going to lose a lot of money because we can walk away from him easily. Since he has an injury history, the team won't want to redo the deal because of that alone. This is going to be interesting.

Agreed.

I also think Flores is right that this is a unique situation

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I think he should be the highest-paid cornerback on the team with the idea that if his play slips from being obviously the best he has a chance to be cut.

I am fine with extending him as long as that is in mind.

I can't find the article now but it created a formula with something along the line as interceptions per passes thrown there way in comparison with the average interceptions caught during the given season. Or something like that.

In the last 3 years, Howard had two of the best seasons in NFL history when it came to that statistic. There is an argument that he has been the best intercepting cornerback in NFL history in the last 3 years.

Last season there is talk of Byron Jones being a disappointment in comparison to his contract. I don't necessarily agree, but he is the 2nd best cornerback on the team.

I understand all of the arguments about timing, however X has a small window to maximize his value. I don't think he is selfish or less of a man or making mountains out of molehills for wanting to make more money.

How many people here would be happy at their job if they were paid less than someone who they were better at their job just because the other person is a new hire?

I mean, your last statement is a fairly common occurrence, if you think about it like this. I've been with my company for 11 years. I work for a juvenile residential facility. When I started there, starting pay was $10-$13 an hour. Starting pay is for that same position today is $15-$17 an hour. When they upped starting pay, they didn't go and adjust long time workers pay. So someone starting out today makes what I made after 4 years working in the company.

I do agree with your point about bringing on a higher paid CB, when X is better. That was stupid of the front office, and probably should actually have to have some sort of consequence for that move.

"resnor wrote:

I mean, your last statement is a fairly common occurrence, if you think about it like this. I've been with my company for 11 years. I work for a juvenile residential facility. When I started there, starting pay was $10-$13 an hour. Starting pay is for that same position today is $15-$17 an hour. When they upped starting pay, they didn't go and adjust long time workers pay. So someone starting out today makes what I made after 4 years working in the company.

I do agree with your point about bringing on a higher paid CB, when X is better. That was stupid of the front office, and probably should actually have to have some sort of consequence for that move.

I know that is a common occurrence and the fact that people don't demand more money show how little leverage the current work force has.

A lot of people demand more money though and a lot of people quit when they don't get it. It is actually happening more and more after Covid-19. For a lot of people that was a wake up call to not take a companies BS.

"Hooligan wrote:

In Howard's defense, 15 million a year might sound like a lot of money but, in a world of Lamborghinis and Bentleys, 15 million doesn't go but so far. I'm not sure about what point I was trying to make.

I believe you,

"Silverphin wrote:

But we don't have an Aaron Donald. We have an Xavien Howard, who is the best player on the defense.

Not after we trade him - LOL

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

my hope is that they can find something that works for the team and keeps X happy for at least two years.

I think Miami is a potential superbowl team this year with X.

The potential is very dependent, however, if the line is middle of the line and Phillips is as good as I think he will be, and the rest of the young players either improve or have a small slump, this team can be very dangerous.

I completely agree. If this year's team comes together like the last two seasons with the same growth, this is going to be a scary good team. A lot of folks need to take some strides in growth for us to be a super bowl contender, but this is the first time in a long time that I can say it's actually a possibility if everything falls into place.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I think Miami is a potential superbowl team this year with X.

The potential is very dependent, however, if the line is middle of the line and Phillips is as good as I think he will be, and the rest of the young players either improve or have a small slump, this team can be very dangerous.

I think this may be where you and I as well as others who aren’t as passionate about keeping X differ. (Honestly I don’t think I’ve seen you take a stand so strongly on anything before, which makes me listen and consider your points when you state them so emphatically). I don’t think Miami is a Howard away from being a super bowl team. I don’t think, even with solid QB play, Miami is the best team in their division yet. And for all his accolades, Miami’s defense was middle of the road last yr, showing up in streaks and then disappearing. And who here thinks Howard will repeat his 10 interception performance?

undoubtably, Miami is a worse team without Howard, In 2021, maybe substantially worse defensively, but at the end of the day, we weren’t winning the super bowl anyway.

"plc001 wrote:

I think this may be where you and I as well as others who aren’t as passionate about keeping X differ. (Honestly I don’t think I’ve seen you take a stand so strongly on anything before, which makes me listen and consider your points when you state them so emphatically). I don’t think Miami is a Howard away from being a super bowl team. I don’t think, even with solid QB play, Miami is the best team in their division yet. And for all his accolades, Miami’s defense was middle of the road last yr, showing up in streaks and then disappearing. And who here thinks Howard will repeat his 10 interception performance?

undoubtably, Miami is a worse team without Howard, In 2021, maybe substantially worse defensively, but at the end of the day, we weren’t winning the super bowl anyway.

Here is the thing, I think Miami Dolphin fans and fans in general overestimate the quality of the team it takes to win a Superbowl. The Tampa Bay Bucaneers were a very beatable team last season, the Packers were a decently flawed team who made it to the NFC Championship. In the AFC the Chiefs are good but they are beatable as were the Bills. Dolphins do have a problem with the Bills, but they did make some changes that should help this season.

Miami doesn't need to be the best team in their division, the Buccaneers won the Superbowl with the 5th seed in the playoffs.

Miami's defense last year was mostly new players in a defense that they were still getting used to. They didn't disappear more than any other defense. No defense in the NFL is consistantly good. Why hold Miami up to that standard? With Howard back, they have greatly upgraded the starting linebacking (McKinney is a HUGE upgrade over Roberts and shouldn't lose anything with doing more Van Noy's role), the defensive line should be better, and wherever Phillips lines up should be a HUGE influx of talent. I think the Dolphins defense should be better next year.

I don't know if Howard will repeat his 10 interception performance, however, he has been playing at a very high level for three years. The year he had 7 interceptions was arguably more impressive. So I think he should have a year that is comparable. Especially since on defense they are well coached.

For the Dolphins offense, they do need the line to become O.K. at least. Whoever at center, Hunt, and Kinley should open up some holes inside, but pass blocking need to improve. Though they have so much speed. Waddle excites me. Fuller + Waddle exites me. Fuller + Waddle + Bowden is very exciting. Then throw in Gesicki. If Tua plays fine, this could be a very good offense, or at least one like the Steelers last year and the year before everything went to crap, where they would be pedestrian and then just score 3 quick touchdowns.

Dolphins just need to make the playoffs and then go on a winning streak. They don't need to be better than the Bills, they just need to be better than the Bills for one game or Bills could lose.

With Howard, IMO, Miami has a legitimate shot at making a Super Bowl run. I don't think it is a guarantee, but less talented worse coached teams have won the Superbowl.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

This thread really has legs. Lots of opinions. LOL.

I maintain my opinion that any player who is smart/stupid/greedy/aware enough to do anything to improve his situation (more money, different team, other use in a scheme) has my support. With that being said, if Miami draws a line and holds to it that they're not paying him a penny more, I'm fine with that as well. He may or may not have the leverage to get a better deal and he'll either play or sit out. It's not my problem and I have better things to worry about. God bless him.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

The main problems for the team is once u do it once the floodgates will open for other players.
Not to mention how much more money can you give to the cornerback position.I think this is why Noah was drafted.They hope to develop him into a stud corner and then trade Howard next year for salary cap relief.Way to much money already for that position.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Timing is everything. Looking at his deal makes it clear that if he gets hurt this year, he's going to lose a lot of money because we can walk away from him easily. Since he has an injury history, the team won't want to redo the deal because of that alone. This is going to be interesting.

This is 100% correct.

"Vertical Limit wrote:

He is our best defensive back but hes under contract. And im all for making the rest of his contract fully guaranteed.

I am not for extending him yet. hes under contract till the end of 2024. Any extension (which would happen at the conclusion of 2023) would be at most 2 more seasons, which would make him 33 in 2026. That's about right at the end of a cornerbacks prime.

Yeah, when you look at the situation you have to assume he's after guaranteed money (see above) and maybe a slight bump so he's not sitting behind Byron Jones. I don't think he wants more years added to his deal.

I saw a report out there showing how the top-5 CBs (which includes Jones) are in the 15-20M / yr range. I think he's irked when he sees Jalen Ramsey making 20 and he's making closer to half that AND it's not guaranteed. The fact he's got a teammate ahead of him is weird, too.

Fact is, the Dolphins bought low and now have a pretty outstanding player for a better-than-expected price.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Yeah, I agree with you. With that being said, if we can't come to a happy medium, I presume we won't jettison him for less than a deal that returns assets that will strengthen some other area of the team. Atlanta got fleeced in the Julio deal because thanks to pandemic-related contraction of the salary cap, they had to take what was available to sign their rookies. Miami's not in that situation. I'd expect a first rounder for X AND a starter at another position.

In the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL, the team that trades a superstar always loses the trade. But I'd hope we can limit the loss somehow. But I agree with you. If we can keep him, that would be the best move.

I think Xavien Howard is worth far less than a 1st + starter, personally.

I'm envisioning teams offering a 2nd round pick, TBH. He's a veteran with tread on the tires who's had major knee surgery and who's only played 55/80 games as a pro. And he comes with the baggage of wanting to increase his own salary. In fact, it's known that he is/will hold-out for that money, too.

Plus, he's a CB which means that he's only 1 of 4-6 players you need to form a good secondary. He's hardly a guy you can build an entire defense around.

I just can't imagine any GM out there willingly offering up a 1st round pick, let alone a package containing additional player(s).

I sure wouldn't.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

I just can't imagine any GM out there willingly offering up a 1st round pick, let alone a package containing additional player(s).

Absolutely agree in which case Grier's best move might be to give Howard's agent permission to seek a trade and when he reports back to Xavien that the best offers that he's getting are 2nd round picks Xavien's frustration will be directed more towards the agent and, not so much towards the Dolphins.

"pumpdogs wrote:

The main problems for the team is once u do it once the floodgates will open for other players.
Not to mention how much more money can you give to the cornerback position.I think this is why Noah was drafted.They hope to develop him into a stud corner and then trade Howard next year for salary cap relief.Way to much money already for that position.

X sees the handwriting on the wall. We can cut or trade him with minimum cap impact after this season. When we drafted Noah and signed Jones, it became apparent that it was our intention to get rid of him next offseason. I'm more sympathetic to his ploy now than I was before I saw his contract details.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

X sees the handwriting on the wall. We can cut or trade him with minimum cap impact after this season. When we drafted Noah and signed Jones, it became apparent that it was our intention to get rid of him next offseason. I'm more sympathetic to his ploy now than I was before I saw his contract details.

I think it’s pretty simple. He does his posturing and still plays. If he plays last years level, Miami will have to pay him again. I don’t think we’re even a 9 win team without him last year.

I don’t know the details of Jones contract but that guy hasn’t played anywhere near what he was paid.

"mlb1399 wrote:

I think it’s pretty simple. He does his posturing and still plays. If he plays last years level, Miami will have to pay him again. I don’t think we’re even a 9 win team without him last year.

I don’t know the details of Jones contract but that guy hasn’t played anywhere near what he was paid.

Regardless of how well X plays in 2021, he's likely to be cut in 2022. He will have been paid just over half of his contract (with $35.4 million left) and we'll have a minimal cap hit (and $12 million in savings) to get rid of him. It'll be a smart move for the team, just like it's smart for him to try to secure more money off of a hot season. For this reason, I don't expect us to renegotiate with him. I think he's traded before training camp to someone who will increase his guarantees.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/xavien-howard-18986/

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Regardless of how well X plays in 2021, he's likely to be cut in 2022. He will have been paid just over half of his contract (with $35.4 million left) and we'll have a minimal cap hit (and $12 million in savings) to get rid of him. It'll be a smart move for the team, just like it's smart for him to try to secure more money off of a hot season. For this reason, I don't expect us to renegotiate with him. I think he's traded before training camp to someone who will increase his guarantees.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/xavien-howard-18986/

Why would we cut a 28 year old CB, assuming he plays at last years level, if he’s still the top CB in the game?

"DolphinGreg wrote:

I think Xavien Howard is worth far less than a 1st + starter, personally.

I'm envisioning teams offering a 2nd round pick, TBH. He's a veteran with tread on the tires who's had major knee surgery and who's only played 55/80 games as a pro. And he comes with the baggage of wanting to increase his own salary. In fact, it's known that he is/will hold-out for that money, too.

Plus, he's a CB which means that he's only 1 of 4-6 players you need to form a good secondary. He's hardly a guy you can build an entire defense around.

I just can't imagine any GM out there willingly offering up a 1st round pick, let alone a package containing additional player(s).

I sure wouldn't.

Well, first of all. Darrelle Revis got traded to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for the 13th overall pick and a conditional pick at age 28 back in 2013. And that's AFTER suffering an ACL tear. A few positions notwithstanding, if a player is the best at their position - which Xavien Howard arguably is - than there's a good chance that a first rounder can be acquired, regardless if he's "only 1 of 4-6 players you need to form a good seconday".

"mlb1399 wrote:

Why would we cut a 28 year old CB, assuming he plays at last years level, if he’s still the top CB in the game?

Because he's putting the franchise in a very difficult situation. We don't know how close/far they are on making a deal, but X is digging in and saying he wants more money.

Side note- the player's association just shared that players can opt out this season, for any reason, and they have basically a week to decide. That means Rodgers, Wilson, etc can sit without penalty and still get paid...which makes this even more delicate. If X opts out though, it's in stone that he's not playing and he can't opt back in this season- it would simply kill all negotiations and he'd have a year off while receiving the roster bonus part of his contract.

I now believe that opting out would be the worst case scenario- it doesn't benefit anyone and it kills any trade potential or contract re-structures this year.

"mlb1399 wrote:

Why would we cut a 28 year old CB, assuming he plays at last years level, if he’s still the top CB in the game?

1. He has an injury history
2. His current contract takes him into his 30s and based on historical trends, the team can expect diminishing returns
3. For as good as he is, 2020 was probably an outlier statistical season
4. We would save $12 million by releasing/trading him and that money can strengthen the team in other areas
5. We have strong players in the CB room and sufficient assets to replace him in next year's draft and free agency

The team set up his contract with all of these factors in mind. I don't see us moving away from the plan to keep him for another season unless he doesn't show up. And I don't expect him to start training camp without some guarantees.

I support him 100% in this regard but I also understand the team's viewpoint.

"Silverphin wrote:

Well, first of all. Darrelle Revis got traded to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for the 13th overall pick and a conditional pick at age 28 back in 2013. And that's AFTER suffering an ACL tear. A few positions notwithstanding, if a player is the best at their position - which Xavien Howard arguably is - than there's a good chance that a first rounder can be acquired, regardless if he's "only 1 of 4-6 players you need to form a good seconday".

Look at the Cardinals' cornerback room. If you think the Cardinals wouldn't trade a first-rounder for a top-tier CB1, I'm going to disagree with you. X might be the difference between winning the NFC West and not making the playoffs for a team like Arizona.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Look at the Cardinals' cornerback room. If you think the Cardinals wouldn't trade a first-rounder for a top-tier CB1, I'm going to disagree with you. X might be the difference between winning the NFC West and not making the playoffs for a team like Arizona.

....So, you're agreeing with me?

"Silverphin wrote:

....So, you're agreeing with me?

LOL! Of course, I do. I used "you" generally, not specifically toward you.