I am asking from the perspective that there could be and probably are serious flaws in the Dolphin evaluation of talent process. What are they? And do any of you have inside perspective on this, like you CK or Boomer or Rafael, or anyone?
With my limited knowledge as an armchair evaluator, I know something is wrong.
Page 1 of 3
-
-
He's not very good at projecting Right Tackles.
-
Not much really, I believe Ck did a study about the amount of snaps that the various rounds play across the league and Ireland is right around average to slightly above average.
For example if Clyde Gates busts, or John Jerry busts, that is not a good thing but an over view is 3rd and 4th rd picks typically don't do very much on average. -
First of all, I don't think you can make an objective analysis of the talent acquisition 2008-present and call it bad. Not if you go look at what typical talent acquisition in this league looks like, from the standpoint of what a success is and how often that is achieved.
I think there are good arguments that Parcells/Ireland have stuck too often to size/background prototypes that I don't know are properly supported at this point. I also think they've too often avoided signing short-term veteran players to fill holes. -
That I agree with Dpate, the Parcells blueprint is outmoded a bit but as long as he was here that prototype was adhered to to often.
A player who would have made perfect sense for us, Phil Hunt, a CFL passrusher, was passed over when we really could use him now, he is Dumervil's size so he was off of the menu.
But if he hits on say Thigpen and one of the UDFA's, maybe two of them, that goes a long way to balancing the ledger. If Samadha and say Fuller come through, that counter balances Jerry and Gates. -
I happen to believe the Dolphins have one of the least talented teams in the entire NFL. Their record over the last few season certainly shows that they are sub 500 team, and I have seen nothing from Ireland since he took over total control of player personnel decisions which makes me think that he is the answer at the GM position.
To me it all comes down to the teams won-loss record. I don't care that this is the first year under a new head coach. The fact is that this is Ireland's fifth year with the Dolphins and if the Dolphins don't have a winning season this year and make the playoffs, Ireland must go. -
Let's keep beating this dead horse then.
While not even the staunchest defender of Ireland claims he is an elite talent evaluator, to follow up on Padre's post, I've been adamant that he's pretty much an average GM and not the bottom of the barrel scraping GM that many here claim he is, especially when you focus on ALL of his GM responsibilities and not just the draft. I also give him a little credit for some of the moves he didn't make, like overpaying for mediocre QB prospects to appease the fanbase - see Orton, Flynn.
Would I like the GM for the Packers, Giants or Ravens? hell yes, but so would about 27 other teams . -
Disregarding a first year coach with a new rookie QB and new schemes on offense and defense is being stubbornly myopic.
So, if the Dolphins go 9-7 (far-fetched at this point), but Tannehill looks good and Philbin gets this team playing well by season's end, you would still call for Ireland's head?
..if so, then you've already made up your mind regardless of what happens this season.gunn34 likes this. -
I think you have to follow a philosophy of a BPA type draft strategy, when you stray from that to fill needs on the team you are less likely to land good football players..
I understand in some cases, but I think we have reached for position players of need rather than best football player..
That being said, at the end of the year we should know what we have in the talent evaluator Jeff Ireland..go from there. -
I bet you could probably do a study on this and find that GMs who land a franchise QB look better and keep their jobs longer than GMs who land a good number of good players at other positions but don't land a franchise QB.
Tannehill will determine Jeff Ireland's future in the NFL IMO.MonstBlitz, maynard, gafinfan and 2 others like this. -
jboogie The sky is NOT falling!
They all come from good family backgrounds, what's the problem?
-
The biggest problem with Jeff Ireland's drafting has been the lack of homeruns.
The best you can say about Jeff Ireland's talent picking is that he's not a walking disaster like we saw under Dave Wannstedt. But that's not really flattering.
I personally think the second homerun he's going to hit is going to be Ryan Tannehill, but that will be by virtue of Ryan's playing the rock star quarterback position. When you draft a successful long term starter at that position, it's an automatic homerun. But there's something to be said for the line of thinking that it's not really a homerun unless it's a quarterback that separates himself from the pack a la Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning. -
In 5 years, he/they have not drafted anyone who has proven himself to be an offensive playmaker yet.
So, all their eggs are in the Tannehill, Egnew, and Miller baskets.
Half credit for undrafted Bess..... -
dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Well number one overall has to be tempered imo , how may of our draft picks have exceeded their draft positions? The contributions provided re the draft slot .... I haven't reviewed this closely but I think it would/will be telling.
Missing on a John Jerry at 3 or Clyde Gates at 4 isn't of itself bad but you expect to hit big on some of those to balance that , not sure Ireland proponents can point that out overall. -
the move I'll never get over was Ireland agreeing to a trade down with the Chargers hours before the 2010 draft. That basically tells me that he didn't care who could be available at #12 in the 1st round, he just wanted to recoup a 2nd rounder after losing a couple in the Brandon Marshall trade. We coulda had Dez Bryant. or Earl Thomas. Or Jason Pierre-Paul. 3 guys who would have filled major needs back then. and you know what's even sadder? Lol we have the same damn needs today. Pass rusher, WR, safety. it's like we've come full circle.
But hey, we got Odrick and Misi instead baby!!! It all worked out!!!Pandarilla and Bpk like this. -
That does indeed go down as looking not so good.
-
He makes up for it with incredible free agent signings.
-
-
As for Ireland, I think he has average to good evaluation skills, but as a GM trying to put together a team has been below average.
Relied to much on prototype comparisons (big players), avoids playmakers like the plague, struggles to find OL beyond the first round.
I think a winning season with a good performance by Tannehill and he easily keeps the job. A 6-8 win season with Tannehill performing well throughout probably buys him at least one more to surround him with talent. Less than 6 wins and/or a poor year long showing from Tannehill would be a deathblow.
QBs ultimately are the arbiters of a successful GM more often than not. Tannehill working out can give Ireland more life, but he cannot squander it like he has done - he needs to find homerun talent, especially at the playmaking spots. -
The other issue, and this comes from Parcellian thinking:
-As long as they have size draft them
-Skip playmaker positions in favor of blue collar positions..
Of all of the ills of the franchise, doing this consistently has had a cascading ill effect
John Jerry over Aaron Hernandez
Koa Misi over Gronkowski, Graham, Moeaki
Then, trading up for...larger players..ie..Daniel Thomas..then trading back from elite physical talent for..Odrick and Misi...
Over and over again this has been the pattern, another effect is "if" we had taken Jimmy Graham, we would not have taken Egnew, our opportunity costs with Ireland have been on the wrong side of the ledger far to often.texanphinatic and dolfan22 like this. -
Therefore Ireland can not be credited with the signing of Wake, Dansby, Bess, or any other free agent you feel have been incredible, which were signed under Parcells leadership. If there have been some incredible free agent signings since he took over from Parcells, please let all of us know who these players might be.Bpk likes this. -
dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Really a sad sad list Chris posted , if Tanneyhill plays well and shows real promise perhaps that saves Ireland from being fired , honestly I don't know how I think Ross will react if we are a 6 or 7 win team . How some young players produce and indicate I guess will be the key .
Honestly can anyone be pleased with that draft list? Or.... wonder why we are where we are? -
As for the list, it would have been fine IF we had given long shot physical talent more snaps in the regular season, Sparano did not do that as he was on the hot seat and here we are..Wallace et al should have played last season to be ready this yr, or to be gone.
This is why I'm not thrilled with Tannehill being a starter this yr but think we MUST develop young physically talented skill position players.Bpk likes this. -
Fans are so used to having a mediocre team that they actually think a 8-8 season is a good season. Personally I am sick and tired of mediocre and I expect a GM who can actually put a team on the field who can contend for a Super Bowl, not a team that is considered a success if they finish 500.
I have been a fan since the teams inception in 1966. So I was around when the Dolphins had the best GM in the business, Joe Thomas. I saw the Dolphins go from an expansion team to a Super Bowl winner in six years. I also saw them remain a strong playoff contending team for many years during the Shula era. I just find it sad that so many on here are willing to settle for what many of them consider an adequate GM, in Ireland.
Yet as long as fans are willing to settle for a mediocre team, Ireland is probably a perfect fit for the job. As for me, I am waiting for the Dolphins to hire the next Joe Thomas, and hopefully get rid of the mediocre, Ireland.dolfan22 likes this. -
MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member
-
Take Mike Pouncey as another for instance. You're talking about a guy with a high ceiling...for a center. But the position itself is a high floor, low ceiling position when it comes to NFL value and getting the most bang for your buck. The position has almost zero bust rate when a guy is good enough to be taken that high. It was a very "safe" pick. As was Jake Long. And the trade that netted Jared Odrick & Koa Misi rather than having to pick a guy at #12 overall.
Jeff Ireland is a very risk averse general manager when it comes to picking talent. I think that works IF you already have play makers on your roster and you're just trying to build around them. But the Dolphins don't, and they need to acquire those star type players, and I don't know that Ireland's approach will put those core players on the roster.PhinsRDbest and dolfan22 like this. -
His strength is not busting 1st round picks and finding great UDFAs.
His weakness is the rest of the draft, stellar first rounders and free agency with established vets.
Sound like a GM you want? -
Fin-Omenal likes this.
-
It's been stated by Ireland that Parcells has always run the top of the draft, and with as much respect as I can say this, anyone who believes the draft from '08-'10 wasn't Parcells' baby is fooling himself. That's like trying to argue Tom Brady wasn't the Pats starting QB last year. Ireland obviously had input but it was significantly diminished b/c it simply wasn't his show. There's an abundance of articles written on the subject.
The stark contract between the 2010 & '11 drafts compared to '08-'10 should serve as on obvious indication on how much control Parcells had over the first three drafts as well as the blueprint used for players drafted. The first 3 drafts compared to the last 2 look like they came from 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT teams. I wonder why that is. Could it possibly be due to what everyone else around the country knows as fact, that this team was run by Bill Parcells?
It's interesting that the Cowboys' 2010 board had Odrick & Misi rated as the 15th & 35th best players respectively. -
And when has Jeff Ireland EVER commented on what portions of the draft Bill Parcells handled in Miami and what portions Jeff was allowed to handle? I'll give a hint. Starts with "n" and ends in "ever". -
I'd also say that Ireland taking him at #8 [rather than trading down] when the much of the country thought Ryan was a reach defies the "risk averse" label.
IMO, there are numerous other '10 & '11 picks that defy the label of "risk averse" such as:
- trading up for an unpolished but talented Daniel Thomas who was previously a QB (high ceiling pick)
- drafting a developmental, small school, speed guy in Gates (high ceiling pick)
- using a 3rd on a developmental, pass catching Mizzou TE (high ceiling pick)
- using a 3rd on DE whose production was less than his draft status (high ceiling pick)
- Rishard Matthews was a high ceiling pick that Parcells might've seen as "risk averse"
- Kadu seems like an athletic, upside potential type of pick rather than the typical, traditional, Parcells linebacker selection.
- Kearse was a small school upside pick
- Jimmy Wilson was a risk pick
- IMO if we had reached for Mark Ingram in '10, that would've been a "risk averse" high floor/low ceiling type of pick. However, I can't see calling the twin of one of the NFL's best lineman as anything but a high ceiling/high floor type of pick. I see nothing wrong with a "safe pick" when the player looks like a potential Pro Bowler early in his career and you have a twin brother as a reference point. I'd make that pick over and over again.
I wasn't a fan of our 1st 3 years of drafts. I hated that we ignored playmakers, and most of the picks that I cringed at like Pat Turner and all the other Parcells blueprint type players seem nothing like the type of players we're drafting now at those same positions. It's all different. WR, TE, RB, Oline, QB. Defense still share some in common but I think that's more b/c of Ireland & Parcells sharing a similar mindset when it comes to defense and what they look for in players, but offensively, Ireland seems to have veered off on a completely different path than his mentor. If he didn't, I'd be throwing rotten eggs at him till my arms fall off. -
There have been some differences in 2011 and 2012, specifically 2012 when he was taking input from Mike Sherman and Joe Philbin...but not many overall. Same tendencies. -
Reference the below quotes:
Keeping the above quote about Parcells in mind, look at the '09 Patrick Turner selection and Ireland's comments about the pick:
There was a point where I blamed Ireland for all the picks I despised, but then I did a bunch of research and applied some simple logic to the findings and realized the onus was on Parcells. Even Jeff Darlington & Armando knew the '08-'10 drafts were Parcells' babies, and so was the team.CANDolphan likes this. -
Armando quotes:
I certainly don't have a problem with people having opinions, but I'd think there are times where finding the truth is more important than being subjective. I've been listing some factual stuff about Ireland, Parcells, and our past drafts, but it seems like the truth about the matter is less important to some fans than standing firm with their beliefs.
Page 1 of 3