2nd that

congrats Tim Tebow, while not a huge fan of his game translating to the next level he did put up amazing numbers, and is deserving of the award and a seemingly great kid.....congrats Tim Tebow.

 

Congrats to Tebow.

Well deserved.

 

Great stuff Motion. I love the Superman cartoon :D
I've missed our Gators thread.

 

Hey! Wanted to congratulate you Gator guys -- and Tim Tebow, himself, but I can't talk to him -- on Tebow winning the Heisman.

Well deserved and what Tebow did this year was amazing. I think it can be duplicated because Tebow will be back next year, but other than that, a year like this one seems distant for any other QB. Tebow's a unique talent, and I haven't seen the like.

Anyhoo, good luck in the Capital One Bowl. Really, there isn't a team out there that I think the Gators couldn't beat (sorry for the double-negative). So just go ahead and beat Michigan, will ya?

And War Eagle!!!

 

First off, Tebow won the Heisman and congrats to him he seems like a great kid. The numbers are what the numbers are so be it…but lets look at some of what is behind the numbers. Also lets acknowledge Tebow is unstoppable at 235-240 pounds from 3 yards out in a spread formation. Motion and I have had this respectful disagreement for a long time now. IMHO this feat will be rather easily duplicated and could have been duplicated this year by none other than Chase Daniel…Lets look at the numbers. Also I ran these numbers before the Big 12 championship game so take that for what it is worth as Florida did not have to play LSU again and I do not feel like rerunning the numbers…..

Conference Schedule
Tebow 142-213-2252-17-5
Daniel 233-319-2640-20-6
Daniel had 6% points higher completion ratio, 3 more TD’s, and almost 400 yards more passing…advantage Daniel.

In their big four games Tebow (Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, and UGa) and Daniel (Oklahoma, Texas A/M, Kansas, and Illinois)
Tebow 60-98-894-6-3
Daniel 143-182-1438-10-2
Big advantage Daniel!!!

Versus cupcakes. Tebow (FAU, WKU and Troy) and Daniel (Illinois State and W. Michigan).
Tebow 56-76-875-9-1
Daniel 48-80-522-5-4
Huge advantage Tebow!!!

Of Tebows 22 rushing TD’s …. 16,, yes, 16 were less than 10 yards and 13 were less than 3 yards. Tebow had 29 Passing TD’s…9 against cupcakes with geographically challenged names. Daniel had 5 out of his 33 Td’s against cupcakes but had 4 INT’s…translation Tebow dominated the cupcakes and put up BIG numbers against the lesser competition, and was only an above average QB in his big four games…….and made a legend falling for 2 or 3 yards for a TD….would it have been a slightly different vote if Daniel had fallen in instead of handing off????

Florida had 15 non Tebow rushing TD’s…Mizzou had 21 non Daniel rushing TD’s. Florida had 4 of less than 10 yards by K. Moore. Mizzou had 16 TD’s less than 10 yards and 9 less than 3. Harvin had 5 TD’s this year…none less than 10 yards.

Bottom line…Daniel had a better year passing, team had a better record, Tebow had a lot of short short TD runs and dominated stiffs, so he wins the Heisman. Congrats Tebow, but he ain’t Superman outside 3 yards.

 

Motion...you know I love you man!!!!!

I agree Tebow will get better and better...truth be told, I respect the guy a lot...Class act.....

BUT DON'T EVER....EVER...EVER....call me a Nole...or We will have a smackdown!!!!!!

 

What a great achievement for such a great player.He has broken the mold in so many ways that are are unfathomable to appreciate at this stage.I wouldnt be surprised if he gets another Heisman trophy before his college career is over.

I dont think we have seen the end of his progress.From what I heard they will be working on his passing game during the offseason which will make him even more effective and open up the eyes of pro scouts.He may not be the classic pro type pro QB but he could break the mold yet again once he improves his release and passing skills.

 

In other Gator news...Jarred Fayson is transferring to the University of Illinois. I appreciate the gift Gator fans.

GO ILLINI!!!!!!!!!

 

I really wish I had the temperament of Motion. Unfortunately, I'm not very good at ignoring when statistics are misrepresented.

First off, the “cup-cakesâ€. You're comparing statistical totals, yet you include three games for Tebow, and only two for Daniel. Of course the Tebow would have a “huge advantageâ€. Sorry, but that's just a very poor effort. I realize you were viewing as a stat padding issue, but Tebow only attempted 22.3 passes for each of those games. That's about 5.5 less passes per game than he averaged for the other nine games. To be noted is that you will soon see Tebow may have faced one less "cupcake" passing defense than you assume.

Next is the “Big four gamesâ€: Texas A&M isn't ranked, and didn't even garner any votes. The worst of the four teams Tebow faced was Auburn who is still ranked 22nd in the AP. You've got them as an example of Daniel's success in big games like it's an indication of the level of competition. Well, Daniel did succeed against them: 27-35 352 3-0 PE of 189.9, but Texas A&M's pass defense is ranked 104th! Good grief man.

Meanwhile, that cupcake Troy had the 11th ranked pass defense. Tebow was 18-25 236 3-0 and a PE of 190.9.

I know your “final†stats don't include the Big 12 Championship Game, but the only stats I have included them. So, here are the final stats.
YPA:
Tebow 9.88
Daniel 7.81
YPA is one of the most important statistics a passing offense has.
COMPLETION PERCENTAGE:
Tebow 68.45
Daniel 69.66
I don't know where you got your completion percentages, but it would be impossible for Chase Daniel's completion percentage to fall by 5 total percentage points in just one game. So, he never could have led Tebow by 6% points in that category.

INTERCEPTION PERCENTAGE:
Tebow 1.89
Daniel 1.87
Nearly identical

PASSING EFFICEINCY:
Tebow 177.9
Daniel 151.9
Some people don't like that statistic, so here is the NFL's version.

PASSER RATING:
Tebow 122.9
Daniel 105.5

Chase Daniel passed the ball 217 times more than Tim Tebow. Tebow was far more productive in his attempts though. Unfortunately, if left unchecked, statistics can often be “convenient†;) So, I'm not so sure Daniel had the "better" year passing as much as he just passed more.

I don't have the time or patience to get into the "falling down" thing. It's a pretty silly thing IMO. Tebow had no RB who could get the job done. He had to do it himself, and EVERYONE knew he was going to do it. Good thing they left the field open for him to "fall down" :rolleyes:.

 

First of all the statistics are NOT misrepresented…if I made a mistake in manuaaly doing this then In apologize. You can view the statistics in any manner you so choose, however they are what they are.

Secondly, the cupcakes…yeah Tebow had one more game against “cupcakes. If you seriously think Troy State is a top talent football school then well so be it…many would disagree. So throw Troy State out if you so choose…the stats are then skewed even further in Tebows direction.........

As for the big four games, point taken…so lets look at the teams they played that were ranked at the end of the year…for Florida that is Auburn (23), LSU (2), Georgia (4) and Tennessee (16). For Mizzou that is Oklahoma (6), Kansas (8), Illinois (13). The stats are then as follows: The second set is throwing Texas Tech in for good measure since they were the highest vote gathering team NOT in the Top 25. I would assume that is an acceptable measure of competition.

Tebow 60-98-894-6-3
Daniel (3 games) 115-150-1081-7-2
Daniel (4 games) 128-169-1291-8-3

For the record
YPA…Tebow 7.2, and Daniel 7.2 (3 games) and Daniel (4 games) 7.6.


As for Yards per attempt, you are correct Tebow’s was higher, but I respectfully disagree that that is the most important stat, I could argue that it is actually an insignificant stat given wins and losses of some of the Great QB’s and we need look no further than Trent Dilfer to argue the other side of the equation…I and many would agree that the most important stat is wins and losses and from there we can sway any stat…that fits your purposes.


“I don't know where you got your completion percentages, but it would be impossible for Chase Daniel's completion percentage to fall by 5 total percentage points in just one game. So, he never could have led Tebow by 6% points in that category.â€

…answer…in conference games Tebow was 142-213 (66.7%)…Daniel was 233-319 (73%)…..73%-66.7% equals 6.3% points…………The numbers are the numbers……..as for completion percentages against ranked opponents (Texas Tech thrown in for measure)…Tebows was 61.2% versus Daniels 76.6% (3 games) or Daniel’s (75.7)…you do the math but the difference is either 15.4 points or 14.5…

Chase Daniel passed the ball 217 times more than Tim Tebow. Tebow was far more productive in his attempts though. Unfortunately, if left unchecked, statistics can often be “convenient†;) So, I'm not so sure Daniel had the "better" year passing as much as he just passed more.

Answer…you are correct, Daniel threw much more than Tebow but was also more accurate in Big games, more accurate in conference games, threw more TD’s in big games, threw more TD’s in conference games, won more conference games, the team scored more points…and I would argue Tebow had MUCH better talent around him. Macklin, Freeman, Rucker, Coffman and Alexander do not hold Caldwell, Harvin, Casey,s Moore, and Ingram’s jock.

As for the falling down “thingâ€, I disagree that florida had no one that could get the job done. Harvin and Moore are excellent players. I give Meyer credit for padding Tebow’s numbers…a TD is a TD…but I am not as impressed as a Gator fan over 2 yard TD’s in a spread offense. I hae no doubt Tebow is the best power running QB, probably in the history of CF, but he was NOT a better passer or better big game performer than Chase Daniel was THIS year….IMHO…and I think the numbers show that.

I am OK with Tebow winning the Heisman and he did put up the numbers, and is a great kid. I just do not buy into the Superman hype…3 teams had Kryptonite and he was only an above average QB in big and conference games, and did not as evidenced by the numbers have Daniel’s stats in those games. I am sure you can argue the point that yards per attempt is the mecca of stats just I could argue that yards after the catch padded his stats…there will always be the argument to make.

I enjoy the banter and appreciate the view…that is what makes CF so much better than PF IMHO…….feel free anytime to banter with 2 cents, I enjoyed…….Regards.

 

That's pretty much my point by saying "statistics can often be convenient ;)" I was mocking both of our posts with that comment. In the end we are comparing two QB's from two very different offenses. Both are "spread" offenses, but there aren't many similarities after that. I'll post more on it soon.

I'll do my best not to misquote you, if you try to do the same, okay? I gave no subjective analysis of Troy as a footall school. I presented the true FACT that after 12 games, including games against Arkansas, Florida, Oklahoma St, and Georgia, they managed to have the 11th ranked passing defense. BTW, Troy gave Georgia a good scare, and throttled a middle of the road Big 12 Oklahoma St. team.

I don't get the last part about the stats being skewed ever further in Tebow's favor by removing Troy. He had an excellent game against Troy. Also, I could argue that Tebow was consistent throughout the season and didn't play up or down to his opponents. It's fun game, isn't it? :ffic:

That's far better than using A&M. I've only run the numbers on Daniel's four game split, but their P.E.'s for those four game splits are
Tebow 151.93
Daniel 151.98

I'd say they compare pretty favorably.

Again with the misquoting. I did not say it was THE most important, I said it was one of the most important, and it most certainly is. The only other statistic more predictive of W's and L's is turnovers. You could try to make that argument, but it would be a futile effort. Don't let the statistical anomaly of one quarterback fool you. There's a very knowledgeable poster here by the name of Awsi Dooger. He's worked in Vegas for years, and his business has been pro sports statistics. I can't say for certain if the correlation from NFL to NCAA is perfect, but I know it is extremely significant.

On the subject of W's and L's, this is where I see the writing on the wall that we are most certain to disagree on many more football issues than Tebow and Daniel. Using wins and losses as the most important stat for a QB gives my acid reflux. That's a discussion for another day, but needless to say, I do not believe Vince Young is a great QB ;)

Thanks, and I apologize for missing that part. As far as the differences between the two, I'll refer you to the first part of my post. The spread offense that Daniel operates uses short, high percentage passes in place of running. Whereas the spread option offense uses the run to set up the pass. Hence the high percentage vs higher ypa. What we really have here are the two best QB's of there respective of offenses being compared as if they are both apples.

Here we have some of the same issues I've already addressed. One more thing regarding the wins and losses that I didn't address is defense. Neither QB plays it, and neither legacy, so to speak, should benefit or suffer because of it. Marino wasn't the reason Thurman Thomas and Jim Kelly ran up HoF numbers against the Dolphins. Just as Tebow isn't at fault for LSU converting five consecutive fourth downs, or for Moore's fumble or for Ingram trying to catch the ball with his head rather than his hands leading to a late interception in that game. All that in his worst statistical game of the year, but it is still one that always includes the phrase "despite Tebow carrying the Gators on his back..."

I'll agree that Tebow had better talent to play with, but I'll also argue that he played in a better conference from top to bottom. Also, I can't help but question how much you know about the Gators if you included Casey and Moore in that comparison. I don't believe Casey caught a ball year. Calling Moore an excellent back is like saying Casey had a good year receiving. Moore being UF's best back is THE reason Tebow had to carry the ball so much. He is the reason everyone predicts Tebow won't have the same rushing numbers next year as Emmanuel Moody will replace him in the backfield. He is also one of the main reasons UF lost to LSU. He fumbled late in the game while UF tried to put the game away with a long drive. Urban Meyer's reluctance to give him the ball is why that phrase about Tebow carrying the Gators in that game had to be used, same with several games this year. Kestahn Moore brought UF down more than he raised them up.

Remember that stat you brought up about all of Harvin's TD runs being over 10 yards? That's because he's not the type of RB that gets the ball in close quarters. He's great when the defense is spread out and he has the ball in space, a la Reggie Bush. In other words, yes Tebow was the only one who could be counted on to score up close.

The numbers show that they were nearly statistical duplicates in those big games.

Three teams having kryptonite is garbage unless you think the defense is vulnerable to it too. See we've got two QB's who passing statistical twins in those four big games, but one suffered more losses. This is the same one that also had to carry the majority of his team's rushing on his back, and did it so well that some people still think he's just a running QB. But I'm supposed to believe the other QB is the reason his team only lost one of those four? I'm supposed to ignore the rest of the team that the QB cannot affect?

I'm right about the YPA thing. You should research it. I used to disregard it too until I was straightened out. We had a great thread in VIP about specific stats and how relative they were to wins and losses. The most reliable stat we came up with had turnover differential and YPA differential. There's a lot more about the subject that just that though.

Same here bro :ffic:

 

Thanks and welcome back bro! Here's hoping your boys do the SEC proud against Clemson :drink:

 

I love a good respectful sparring match with someone well informed that makes a good well thought out sparring pardner...kudo's bro!!!! It is what makes College football the best...now the pain starts after the bowl games.

 

Absolutely!
Don't remind me. Just this little down time is killing me, especially with such a horrible Dolphins team.
BTW, were you in VIP at FH?

 

Yes I was. Hopefully FH will be back soon.

 

I thought so.
I really miss FH. I actually have to talk to my wife now.

 

Too funny....at least I do not have to listen to mine anymore...she is a Mizzou grad...which is why I saw so much of that sawed off QB of theirs...I kept wanting him to lay an egg and he never did until the OU rematch........frustrated the hell out of me.......

 

lmao at sawed off!
I can't help but like the guy though.
You should have access to VIP here now ;)

 

BTW, since I saw too many Mizzou games, Martin Rucker is a stud TE that was underutilized and still caught a lot of attention....hopefully he is the one Mizzou guy that ends up in Miami, I was EXTREMELY impressed with that guy. Chase coffman got a lot of attention but Rucker I think is the better player....just FYI. Tyler Leullen is an underrated tackle at 315 or so with good feet...knock on him is as a run blocker...but Mizzou ran such super wide splits and trap/misdirection/finesse plays that he did not get to show any physical presence, but he manhandled English 1 on 1 a few times which makes me think he can and might be late round steal.....

 

We'll do our best, but the coaching rumors and upheaval and whatnot has been taking a little fun out of the end of the college season for me. Borges is gone, and Muschamp was being interviewed by Arkansas (glad that's over now). Many, many distractions. Plus, I'm not sure I like the direction Tuberville may be taking us as far as a possible spread offense (no offense to you guys, there). AU's team strength and strength in recruiting has been with solid line play and good running backs. Whenever we've gotten away from that (i.e. Bowden after his first year or two, the Noel Mazzone OC years with Tuberville), Auburn has struggled. Of course, this is a Florida Gator thread, so I digress.

As things stand, I like your chances against Michigan much more than I like Auburn's against Clemson. But yes! Good luck to us!!! And to you.

 

Tebow Wins... Along With Common Sense

Somewhere, Rex Grossman is smiling. For once, the John W. Heisman Memorial Trophy was actually handed to a sophomore. The fact that the winner of the award was a Florida quarterback will allow a six-year-old injustice to finally fade away.

http://cfn.scout.com/2/709567.html

 

You poor bastard.

Anyway Congrats Tebow, soon he'll lead this team to a National Title.

 

I got that in my paper a couple of days ago :thumbup:

 

Oh Eric Rutledge will not play in the Capital One Bowl. Due to reasons unknown but probably grades.


Transferring are Jarred Fayson, Chevon Walker, Bo Williams and Trent Pupello. Look for the 4th string QB Weggener (sp) to transfer also.

I been informed by a very reliable source that Fayson's Uncle was the reason behind the transfer. Saying that he should be doing more of what Harvin is doing and he is a star.

 

It also didn't hurt that Fayson knows Coach Zook very well, as well as some of the other Illini coaching staff.

 

Whats up man!!! I had been looking for you and Finswin. I was waiting for Finheaven to get back up and Stitches + Fin in the moon told me about this board.




I think Fayson just wants to be the star whether it be at QB or WR.

 

Michigan's going down.

 

They will lose by around 30 points

 

Freshman tight end Aaron Hernandez will assume Rutledge's roll at H-back v.s. Michigan

 

ahh this is no big deal, i predicted Heisman a long time ago. :)

been looking for ways to try and get to the Michigan game. argh.