Tua is not the Problem

"Vinny Fins wrote:

If its nit Tua, fine… but that absolute piece of ****? No. And how many of you are EXCITED for him is disgusting.

I don’t think there is many people on here who would be really excited for Watson, before the 22 masseuses, probably, but after that…

"canesz06 wrote:

If you watched the Chargers game last night and can't see that Herbert is light years better than tua then you are blind. He looked like Marino out there last night. He drove his team 85 yards with 2 minutes left in the 4th to the tying touchdown. He converted 3 4th and 10s in that drive as well. It doesnt matter if the Chargers lost or won he still looked like franchise a QB. Any Tua groupie that watched that game last night, knows that but is too ashamed to admit how wrong they are about tua.

Yup.

Well now that the season is over I think we can all weigh in with our own opinions on Tua at this point; and I'm sure nothing will change the minds of most. I find him to be an interesting study; much like our last QB was. Hard to evaluate with awful OC's, awful OL, no real running game and no talent at WR (outside of Waddle of course). However; here we are faced with that yet again. I think that goes to show what the REAL problem is here; it's the organization and its continued poor selection of draft picks and roster building; in particular on offense. However; that kind of is what it is unfortunately.

As for Tua; He's not THE problem; but he's certainly not a part of the solution at this point in time. Can he be? Maybe if we continue to build around him. However in my opinion that kind of IS the problem though. He does not appear to be the type of QB that can take over a game for you and win; or the QB that's going to make a big splash with big plays. This has always been the problem with Miami's offenses over the last how many years now? We draft a QB; the offense still sputters. Regardless of how you view it the QB is the most important position on the offense; it begins and ends with him. In my experience more often than not a sub-par offense usually carries with it sub-par QB play. The two go hand in hand. A good QB can overcome alot. People here say our coaching sucks; so of course Tua sucks. How do we all feel about Zac Taylor right now? He's about as useless as tits on a bull when you talk coaches but he's now got a division title to his name thanks to Burrow (and of course Chase). Good QB's do that for their teams. We're not seeing that again with our QB. To me; that's cause for concern and tells me the door is open for alternative options.

We all know our OL stinks and that affects QB play. That's why we've seen so many short passes. Yes and no though; because IMO alot of those short passes are by design. That's the RPO game that Tua is most comfortable with. I think we tried last year, and at the start of this year to have a more traditional offense; it wasn't working. So the RPO game becomes a big part of our offense again as it's a way to give our QB and entire offense success. To me; that's not a sign of a franchise QB type. You can't pay a guy an eventual 25m plus per year for that type of performance. Can a better OL, and better WR group fix that? Maybe.

As for Tua himself I feel he's physically limited; that arm in particular and his mechanics with his release. I felt through most of the season especially after his injury his accuracy and ball placement on the short/medium stuff was excellent. In the last 3-4 games though I'm not sure what changed but he was wild at times. High, low, behind. You can't win that way. Then we have to look at the decision making. Without access to the all22 film it's hard to say if the short dump offs are his only options, or is he just not seeing the field well enough or quick enough to make the throws downfield. With our limited talent at WR I have to believe this isn't all on Tua; but something here is preventing us from having a vertical offense outside of 1 or 2 plays a game. When we've seen deeper pass attempts we've seen the turnovers and inaccuracy amplified IMO.

That being said I felt there was quite a bit of growth in his game from last year to this year; that's encouraging to see. Can he put it together if we had an at least average OL and some WR talent that could actually stay on the field (looking at you Fuller. Parker). I think so; to me there's enough there to at least see how he continues to develop. I don't think he's destined to be a top 5 or top 10 guy in the league though even with improvements around him. We've seen flashes of ability and encouraging signs throwing downfield, but also the turnovers and bad throws as I said; I have also really enjoyed seeing the bounce back drives from him. AFter throwing the INT against the Jets, and the Saints he followed both of those potentially crushing; bad INT's with excellent drives throwing the ball down field. That response is what you want to see; it's encouraging. I do think there is still potential there; but I do think we've seen enough to tell us he may not be the long term solution here.

Now all that being said if the opportunity arises this year via trade, free agency, or the draft to acquire a QB that improves the position; you absolutely have to do it. There's never a problem with having too many QB's with the premium the league puts on the position. If another QB can come in here and open up the offense then you have to consider it. Unfortunately this is what happens when teams don't draft well (we're looking at you now Grier; you bum!)

Long story short; while Tua isn't the only problem we have on offense he's one of the problems/contributing factors. For me though it all starts with Grier. It's his job to build this roster around the wants/needs of the coaches. He's failed building an OL, failed building a running game, failed at WR options (we all knew Waddle would be a player) so you now have a hard time evaluating your QB as a result. Same story; differen't year/rebuild for Miami. So; Tua isn't THE problem; right now he's part of the problem though in why this offense is so unproductive most of the time. The bigger question here to me is can he be a part of the solution. I'd have hoped we would have seen the answer to that question by now and the fact we haven't yet makes this QB feel pretty similar to the others we've had with offenses that can't move the ball and that's very concerning IMO. That being said I wouldn't be surprised if we bring in another QB; our owner likes that attention but I do think Tua is still here next year because moving on from him now is an admission of failure for the GM and the entire staff and I don't feel Ross is quite ready to realize that yet.

"canesz06 wrote:

If you watched the Chargers game last night and can't see that Herbert is light years better than tua then you are blind. He looked like Marino out there last night. He drove his team 85 yards with 2 minutes left in the 4th to the tying touchdown. He converted 3 4th and 10s in that drive as well. It doesnt matter if the Chargers lost or won he still looked like franchise a QB. Any Tua groupie that watched that game last night, knows that but is too ashamed to admit how wrong they are about tua.

I agree with you. Watching that game last night all I could do was stare at my TV and go wow; it sure looks like Grier blew it. Hes got a cannon for an arm with touch when needed; he's got the physicality, he can move, good pocket presence, size, and a winning attitude. Nothing ever looked too big for him, especially that game tying drive with all those 4th down conversions. You're right, taking the L there has no bearing on him as a QB. As of right now he's there guy for the long haul and there's no doubt about that like there is here.

You can be biggest Tua fan in the world and want him to do well here and be that guy for us, but if you watch the two of them play RIGHT NOW and come away thinking Tua is ahead of Herbert then you've really got to give your head a shake IMO. That's not meant to be a knock on Tua; but it's just the facts of the matter IMO by the eye test.

As I watched last night all I could think about was man... what if we took this guy? Is Waddle more like Chase with more downfield plays? Probably. Is Parker getting more opportunities downfield? Probably. Are we throwing 2 yard passes to Smythe in crucial situations hoping he picks up 8-10? Probably not. Is Herbert going to look worse in our offense? Oh hell yeah; because our OL is terrible. However Herbert was pressured alot last night int hat 4th quarter and still moved in the pocket well, and still delivered rockets on target to his WR's. Theres just more to see with him at this point and you just can't put the two on the same level at this point in time IMO.

The Flores firing might change a lot, but my thoughts last night was I’m happy to see what Tua can do next season. We have a great defence, Waddle is special and shown to have a good relationship with Tua. A lot of his stats are good considering he has officially the worst O Line in the league. Now if he fails next year after we no doubt go out and get the help needed up front, then absolutely we have to look at replacing him. But for me he is definitely not the problem and worth seeing what he can do in 2022

Tua is not THE problem, just one of many the Dolphins have. This team is so freaking cursed.

We should simply change this thread title to Stephen Ross IS the problem.

It seems to me this decision today has been made because of Tua. IF it's true that Flores wanted Herbert and then Watson then it's obvious to me that Tua is here because of Grier and likely Ross too because he fired Flores but not Grier today. So was Flores sabotaging the team and offense to prove his point on Tua not being the right choice? I dont know; I find that a bit hard to believe.

What this all does for me today is move the needle more towards Tua BEING the problem. I dont say that based on his play or his talent, but based on the fact he's been the square peg we've been trying to fit into the wrong hole here. That's going to cause problems across the entire offense; so it's based around Tua but not necessarily on him.

The direction the new HC takes us here will tell us all we need to know. If Tua is the QB our next HC is here to get production from him; if that fails we'll see Grier, the new HC and Tua all ushered out in approximately 2 years time. That also tells me it is unlikely we get a quality HC candidate. The situation of this team isn't going to help attract a quality candidate unless there is one out there that either LOVES Tua; or one that has a plan to get an established QB in here to find success. I find it hard to believe we'll find a quality HC and OC to come saddle their futures to a kid like Tua who just hasn't shown a whole lot of success in 2 years.

"brandon27 wrote:

We should simply change this thread title to Stephen Ross IS the problem.

It seems to me this decision today has been made because of Tua. IF it's true that Flores wanted Herbert and then Watson then it's obvious to me that Tua is here because of Grier and likely Ross too because he fired Flores but not Grier today. So was Flores sabotaging the team and offense to prove his point on Tua not being the right choice? I dont know; I find that a bit hard to believe.

Yup, I completely agree. Even though Tua is not the problem, he ultimately ended up being the problem.

I don't think Flores was sabotaging though; I don't think he had it in him and even if he did, 8-1 finish this year would be pretty hard to explain (especially since it was rumored Flores took over the defense in week 9).

I still believe Tua can be highly productive though- just protect the kid and let him have a chance at running a typical NFL offense. We are void of talent all over the offense outside of Gisecki and Waddle. There's no getting around that.

Today's events 100% verify this thread. Tua IS not, WAS not the problem. THE problem is a leadership problem. Somewhere in the middle of Grier/Ross/Flores is THE problem. I doubt that Flores was THE problem. I suspect it's Grier and/or Ross. THE problem is somewhere in there. 100%. No doubt. No argument. Today is proof positive that THE problem in Miami is not a QB problem, it's a top leadership problem.
Even if a major focal point was the QB, Tua, we're here because Grier wouldn't listen to Flores, or Flores wouldn't talk to Grier, or something like that.

Guys, seriously, if THE problem in Miami isn't fixed then no matter whether Tua stays or goes, we'll be still having this same conversation about QB's, OL's and everything else. None of that is THE issue.

Tua is not THE problem in Miami. If you don't see that then you're going to be stuck in a perpetual cycle of frustration until maybe we get a QB that you DO like and then he doesn't work out either. It's not the QB. It's the leadership.

"Galant wrote:

Today's events 100% verify this thread. Tua IS not, WAS not the problem. THE problem is a leadership problem. Somewhere in the middle of Grier/Ross/Flores is THE problem. I doubt that Flores was THE problem. I suspect it's Grier and/or Ross. THE problem is somewhere in there. 100%. No doubt. No argument. Today is proof positive that THE problem in Miami is not a QB problem, it's a top leadership problem.
Even if a major focal point was the QB, Tua, we're here because Grier wouldn't listen to Flores, or Flores wouldn't talk to Grier, or something like that.

Guys, seriously, if THE problem in Miami isn't fixed then no matter whether Tua stays or goes, we'll be still having this same conversation about QB's, OL's and everything else. None of that is THE issue.

Tua is not THE problem in Miami. If you don't see that then you're going to be stuck in a perpetual cycle of frustration until maybe we get a QB that you DO like and then he doesn't work out either. It's not the QB. It's the leadership.

Flores was "A" problem. He might not have been "THE" problem, but Flores did hire 3 different OCs and a terrible offensive line coordinator.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Flores was "A" problem. He might not have been "THE" problem, but Flores did hire 3 different OCs and a terrible offensive line coordinator.

I can accept that. It isn't Tua though. It's above him. THE problem is a leadership issue.

THE problem is Ross. However, Tua could be "a" problem. Those last 2 games soured me on him a bit. I'm still fine with building around him next year, but the leash is a lot shorter than it was for me before the last 2 games.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Flores was "A" problem. He might not have been "THE" problem, but Flores did hire 3 different OCs and a terrible offensive line coordinator.

And still managed back-to-back winning seasons. Almost 20 years since any coach has done that. Tweaks might have been employed, not a sledge hammer. I tend to agree with Galant: There's definitely a leadership problem and IMO, this fish rots from the head down. I honestly don't GAF who we bring in to coach the team. I have zero interest, no excitement, because it's clear that whatever the problem has been, probably for decades, is still very much present.

For the record: I've defended Tua a lot on this thread and I can recognize his areas of opportunity. If we can get a better QB for a price that doesn't cripple our ability to improve, I'm all for it. Period. Full stop. But I'm to the point that I expect to brick apparent layups under Stephen Ross. I can easily see us trading for Watson and him then being put on Commissioner's Exempt for a season because it would be the most Dolphins thing to happen ever. Afterward, I expect a QB who's a shell of who he was when he last played two seasons prior with a ~$50 million cap destroying black hole of a contract and no first or second round picks for three years.

Upgrade from Tua? Okay. Let's.
Uprgrade from Ross? Please make it happen.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

And still managed back-to-back winning seasons. Almost 20 years since any coach has done that. Tweaks might have been employed, not a sledge hammer. I tend to agree with Galant: There's definitely a leadership problem and IMO, this fish rots from the head down. I honestly don't GAF who we bring in to coach the team. I have zero interest, no excitement, because it's clear that whatever the problem has been, probably for decades, is still very much present.

For the record: I've defended Tua a lot on this thread and I can recognize his areas of opportunity. If we can get a better QB for a price that doesn't cripple our ability to improve, I'm all for it. Period. Full stop. But I'm to the point that I expect to brick apparent layups under Stephen Ross. I can easily see us trading for Watson and him then being put on Commissioner's Exempt for a season because it would be the most Dolphins thing to happen ever. Afterward, I expect a QB who's a shell of who he was when he last played two seasons prior with a ~$50 million cap destroying black hole of a contract and no first or second round picks for three years.

Upgrade from Tua? Okay. Let's.
Uprgrade from Ross? Please make it happen.

I think Ross is the biggest issue.

I don't think Flores should have been fired, but I can't say he didn't have issues that contributed to the problems with Miami.

Ross has was and will always be the problem. Like the inverse of bret hart.

Herbert is on a much better offensive team and was last year too. (Yes, yes, they didn't grade well at one passblock metric, this years Dolphins team was worse) Just look at the skill positions. Run game. He also has and is playing better than Tua, and is trending to be an absolute homerun best player at the position type of pick. So, i get the butthurtedness. At some point you are going to have to stop sobbing into your pillows about it. Get a good nights rest. His play does not influence Tua's. The one head to head game, Tua played better. (Before the pillow sobers come for me, no that doesn't mean he is better than Herbert)

Tua was not the problem this year. Unless, you think that he is responsible for his ribs. I am 100% confident that the Dolphins are in the playoffs if he doesn't get hurt. Playoffs were my bar for a successful season this year. Does he still need to improve to prove he can be the future? Of course. He is impacted by cold weather more than any QB I've seen. He has to get much better when the D is doing things he doesn't expect. He has to get consistent with his mechanics.

I agree that Ross and Grier are in fact the problem. The despair settles in when you realize that only Ross can get rid of Grier, and he just gave the incompetent one a vote of confidence, and only the Grim Reaper can get rid of Ross, so we’re stuck with both.

"Two Tacos wrote:

Herbert is on a much better offensive team and was last year too. (Yes, yes, they didn't grade well at one passblock metric, this years Dolphins team was worse) Just look at the skill positions. Run game. He also has and is playing better than Tua, and is trending to be an absolute homerun best player at the position type of pick. So, i get the butthurtedness. At some point you are going to have to stop sobbing into your pillows about it. Get a good nights rest. His play does not influence Tua's. The one head to head game, Tua played better. (Before the pillow sobers come for me, no that doesn't mean he is better than Herbert)

Tua was not the problem this year. Unless, you think that he is responsible for his ribs. I am 100% confident that the Dolphins are in the playoffs if he doesn't get hurt. Playoffs were my bar for a successful season this year. Does he still need to improve to prove he can be the future? Of course. He is impacted by cold weather more than any QB I've seen. He has to get much better when the D is doing things he doesn't expect. He has to get consistent with his mechanics.

Tua is responsible for his health and that makes 3 years in a row he’s missed time due to injuries. It’s tough to rely on a QB who can’t stay healthy.

I don’t think anyone is crying over Herbert vs Tua. I think people are and should be evaluating Griers job based on that mistake. And it was a mistake. But that’s not the only one.

I’m not gonna chastise Grier over his draft this year but there were 4 pro bowl players available and he was in a position to draft any of them. Looking at the last 2 years, he had 5 1st round picks and 4 2nd rounders. At this point, 0 pro bowlers.

Holland looks like a home run, Phillips has shown promise and Waddle will be good. What else do we have to show for this massive haul?

"mlb1399 wrote:

Tua is responsible for his health and that makes 3 years in a row he’s missed time due to injuries. It’s tough to rely on a QB who can’t stay healthy.

I don’t think anyone is crying over Herbert vs Tua. I think people are and should be evaluating Griers job based on that mistake. And it was a mistake. But that’s not the only one.

I’m not gonna chastise Grier over his draft this year but there were 4 pro bowl players available and he was in a position to draft any of them. Looking at the last 2 years, he had 5 1st round picks and 4 2nd rounders. At this point, 0 pro bowlers.

Holland looks like a home run, Phillips has shown promise and Waddle will be good. What else do we have to show for this massive haul?

People are crying in this thread, which is not a Tua vs Herbert evaluation thread. There is no reason to be comparing Tua to Herbert here, yet it keeps happening. You responded with one point about Tua's health, and the rest of your post is about Grier.

The play that Tua hurt is ribs on was not his fault. There was no action that he took, or didn't take that could have prevented that, he was throwing the hot route. Compare that to the play that he hurt his hip on. Should have thrown that one away.

"ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:

Doesn't matter, you're still wrong. You can't make this call completely until he has a competent offensive line in front of him. Oh and a capable running back would help as well. Duke Johnson is not the answer, although he did play well for us at times.

Well I guess you are wrong, Tua playing ability did not live up to expectations.
Mark my words firing Flores is just the beginning of the end of Tua. By the way I love Flores and think he deserves better.

"bbqpitlover wrote:

Well I guess you are wrong, Tua playing ability did not live up to expectations.
Mark my words firing Flores is just the beginning of the end of Tua. By the way I love Flores and think he deserves better.

From what I read today it seems like Flores is the one who wanted to get rid of tua. Ross and grier seem to want him. I hope I'm wrong but I think we're stuck with Tua

This Draft class is weak at QB.

Watson is an actual creep. Could be suspended. He would cost a ton of Salary cap space and a boatload of draft capital.

Free agency is a joke. What are we going to do get Trubinsky or Bridgewater ?

It would seem Garrapalo and Cousins might end up on trading block. Hard pass.

I think we stick with Tua again next year.
Best option right now.

"canesz06 wrote:

From what I read today it seems like Flores is the one who wanted to get rid of tua. Ross and grier seem to want him. I hope I'm wrong but I think we're stuck with Tua

I feel like if Grier and Ross had no interest in Watson the story wouldn't have lasted so long and someone would have shot it down.

But the problem is after Watson there isn't much of a choice but to rock Tua another year

Why fire Flores if we're going to give Tua another year? Unless it's the idea that a new coach can come in and get the most out of Tua and the offense, I don't understand. Dysfunction is dysfunction. Ryan Tannehill had how many offensive coordinators while he was here? Sherman, Daboll, Lazor, Gase...We can do this all day long. I don't see it fixing anything though. I think at the end of the day this organization is just dysfunctional and nobody really knows who's in charge. Maybe Flores saw through all that and they axed him because of it? I don't know...I just don't get playing musical coaches every three years. In regards to Tua, it's really up to him to improve and get better. You can bring in new coaches all day long for him, but if the talent isn't there, then it's not going to work. We put the cart before the horse with this one yet again. Seems to be what this team always does.

"Pennington's Limp Arm wrote:

This Draft class is weak at QB.

Watson is an actual creep. Could be suspended. He would cost a ton of Salary cap space and a boatload of draft capital.

Free agency is a joke. What are we going to do get Trubinsky or Bridgewater ?

It would seem Garrapalo and Cousins might end up on trading block. Hard pass.

I think we stick with Tua again next year.
Best option right now.

Kenny Pickett wouldnt be a bad option. He's got size, accuracy and a strong arm. Not as strong as Herbert but still strong. If we forego drafting a QB this year, next year Tyler VanDyke from Miami would be a good pick for us. He had a great freshman season this past season and I think he's gonna light it up next year. If we could get him in 23, I could put up with ol' noodle arm for one more season