Classic Fineas. :up:

 

Good write up, I believe Ireland is the one that said we have a bunch of threes and fours.

I don't want either one going anywhere..My goal for that unit would be to add two players, that eventually contribute fairly equally, and are somewhat interchangable.

 

Bess and HArtline are targeted so much ebcuase we don't have anybody else.

Our 3rd WR has been 3 differnet guys thus far, none of whom have been effective. And our TE play has been spotty with the exception of Clay's good game last week

So yes, we have nobody else to consistently throw to. Take a look at GB whom I suppose we're suppsoed to be emulating. They threw to starting WRs only 33% of the time. That's because they have 4 good WRs plus good TE's. they have a multitude of weapons who all have different roles.

Same thing with teams like NE. Who cares what their starting WRs are catching when they have two monsters at TE.

At the end of the day, what's the point of this thread? Are you suggesting we shouldn't bother to, or have no need to upgrade our WR unit, or our pass catching unit in general?

this has nothing to do with Ireland by the way. I don't understand the zeal with which some here want to claim we are a great team that doesn't need improvement.

 

WADR to the OP, some of those numbers have to do with defenses playing the run and sneaking the safeties up etc.

 

Bottom line for me, I believe they can be part of a unit that is championship caliber, just have to hit on the other two..

 

this what you might call denial and dolphin fans have been this way since welker left and Bess is nowhere close to being at Welker's level.

your post nail it . I think some folks love losing andlove nothaving a superstar wr or te for that matter.

 

IMO the reluctance to be "sold" on these guys comes from wanting "sexy" physical characteristics, a la Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson, and not realizing that Hartline and Bess have a lot of the "Jerry Rice" type characteristics that can make receivers very successful.

 

I think we need another contributor (Mike Wallace is my top choice in 2013... Dwayne Bowe or Greg Jennings is a fine consolation prize) at the wide receiver to go alongside Hartline and Bess. Personally I think a possible outcome is we re-sign Brian Hartline to 3-4 year deal and then we sign Greg Jennings to a 2-3 year deal because of his disappointing 2012 campaign due to injuries and then draft a wide receiver in the second or third round in 2013.

 

:wink2:

 

Interesting stats but we still need more out the TE and running backs out of the backfield.

 

Which makes Reggie B's disappearance from the passing game all the more odd.

I think we may have thrown to DTrain more than Reggie B

 

The discontent with Bess and Hartline borderlines on ludicrous. At a certain point, their production on the field should outweigh their draft status and 40 time.

Bess and Hartline have not been promoted past their level of competence. Their workload has not resulted in inefficiency. They are catching a good % of passes(both 65.5% of targets). Neither one has a disproportionate amount of interceptions thrown at them(3 apiece). I don't believe anyone is performing less well in any major area.

 

They can be the mid level wideouts on a deep playoff team imo as well , the receiving options/threats above them have to be significantly better though , imo. Right now , of ocurse we don't have that from the TE , WR or RB position.

 

LOL. Like Rice's 49 TDs through his first 4 years and ability to beat defenses repeatedly despite trying to stop him? Yeah, I can see the resemblance there. :unsure:


I guess Roberto Wallace should've been a stud since he has similar physical characteristics that make Johnson & Johnson successful.

 

As Mike Mayock also stated , Miami is virtually in the red zone in all areas of the field. This could be changed with more effective weapons in the passing game , this doesn't diminish that Hartline , Bess and Fasano have value, but they don't change the fact that teams play Miami in this regard .

 

I suppose that was Jerry Rice's only characteristic? He had no others that were similar to those of Bess and Hartline?

 

I agree..we've got to add two players who have some dynamic traits..

I see no problem upgrading our offense with the resources we have..

 

Go check on the performance of the typical rookie QB. How do you suppose you would go out there and defend one?

 

What discontent? They're both solid secondary level receivers. Unfortunately, when they're forced into being our top 2 receivers they allow us little to no ability to dictate games to defenses as noted in this recent Miami Herald article:

Hartline & Bess are complementary pieces at the WR position, not focal pieces.

 

I don't think the discontent is that rampant...I'm surprised you do, at least based on what I've seen on the boards. I think the gripe with the receiving corps is that while Hartline and Bess are solid starters, there's still "something missing" from the receiving corps. I think Brandon Marshall, minus the BPD and off-field issues, added that missing piece...the quarterback play just didn't measure up.

The fact that the most TDs Hartline or Bess has produced in a season is only 5 (Davone Bess in 2010), and they've only produced a combined total of 18 receiving TDs in a combined almost 8 full seasons (Bess 4 plus this year, and Hartline 3 plus this year) speaks more to a trend than Fineas alluded to. Obviously QB play is a factor, but despite both Hartline and Bess proving they can get deep on occasion, how many times have they really busted a long TD, or taken a quick slant to the house?

I think even you've alluded to adding someone like a Mike Wallace would round out this receiving corps. It's pricey yes, but I think he can really take the lid off a defense a lot more effectively than Hartline and Bess, leaving them to underneath and intermediate stuff; thus allowing Miami to attack 3 different levels of opposing defenses with consistency, rather than two. If Charles Clay continues developing, then you're cooking with gas so long as you keep Ryan Tannehill upright. Rishard Matthews seems like he could be a very nice #4 receiver as well.

But I think at some point, if you're really looking at this team "taking the next step" one of those serious questions that Ireland, Philbin, and the coaches would have to ask themselves is, "Would you forgo re-signing Brian Hartline to use money on Mike Wallace?". That's just an example, but, I think that at present, Miami doesn't really have that game-changer in the current mix. Even Jeff Ireland said as much on Hard Knocks in his interview with Peter King.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/12568/brian-hartline
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/11678/davone-bess

 

Exactly.
If you've got a pair of starting receivers who are anemic when it comes to scoring, then where is the scoring supposed to come from? If we want to score 26+ pts/game, who's accounting for the OTHER 25+ touchdowns? Who's making up for the WR position? That's a lot of stress to put on the TE, ground game, PR/KR, and defense. WADR to everyone, I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

It's not the QB who has affected their scoring ability; it's them who've affected the QB.... with Henne being a case in point. He couldn't score crap with them (just as Tannehill can't), but Henne hasn't had a problem the past 2 weeks with a more talented WR group (6 TDs, 615 yards, 118.9 QBR).... and Jacksonville's group of receivers certainly don't have a problem scoring with Henne at QB as their two young studs, Blackmon & Shorts, have 4 TDs over the past 2 games, so the argument of "Hartline didn't score b/c of Henne" is complete BS. The guy isn't a scorer, period.

 

So you are saying that Henne doesn't have the ability to improve.

 

Of course he does have the ability to improve, but to counter that notion:
a) he didn't morph into a new player overnight as if emerging from a cocoon.
b) how is he supposed to improve to the extent you're implying when he hasn't seen the field much from last year until now and has had few 1st team practice reps with these guys?


It's much more logical that the 2 guys who have had trouble scoring throughout their careers with Henne, Moore, and now Tannehill have done so b/c of them, not the QB.

 

Quality work, Fineas. I only wonder how this offense would have been perceived had Edmund (Edmond?) Gates had developed.

 

You said it in your original post, its the lack of big plays ...touchdowns that make the group weak. We don't break quick short passes for TDs, we don't have big yardage TDs or redzone TDs from our WRs. They are a weak link on our team no doubt. It limits our playcalling, our redzone offense and our scoring options. Moving the ball is obviously nice but we need someone that can simply overwhelm a defense now and then and get us points. A lot of teams defenses will take a ton of yards and field goals as long as they aren't giving up TDs its a good trade. No WR on our team scares anyone, no team's coaching staff or defense stays up at night worrying about our WR group. It needs another big target and a good TE IMO.

 

I think when you have people claiming you have to get rid of either one of Bess or Hartline and draft multiple receivers, that neither of them should ever be better than #3 or #4 players, or when you advocate some of the theories people have about them being successful nearly entirely through defensive neglect, you've got discontent that doesn't really line up with reality.

No, you're right, I agree with all of that.

I think touchdowns are situational and based on other factors than people tend to allow. Neither Hartline and Bess are great red-zone threats, but I don't think either are particularly bad as they appear, and if you have otherwise good players, you find a way to do it other ways.

I think you've also got to take a critical look at who actually busts long touchdowns with any regularity, and how many players you can realistically expect to have that are capable of that.

I like Mike Wallace a lot, and I think in the right circumstances you pay a lot of money for him, but I don't know if Miami is in that situation.

Miami should go for a generalist in my opinion. Mike Wallace don't fit red zone issues, for example.

 

Nah, it's better to just rely on theory and personal opinion.

 

Why do we need to catch passes in the red zone if the run game has been for effective for us? Not trying to prove anyone wrong here, just wondering. http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

 

No, that I agree with you on. IMO they're both valuable receivers in their own right when put into proper perspective, which is--- if they can be used to compliment a full & talented receiving cast rather than serving as the primary 2 targets. I'd put Bess & Hartline on linebackers, safeties, and nickel corners all day long if I could mismatch it that way. Unfortunately, until we have a talented addition at WR to draw #1 corners, we're faced with #1 corners playing Hart & Bess, which doesn't present us with much of a mismatch, nor as much consistency as we would like IMO.

 

It's pretty amusing to see the Dolphins more successful in the red zone than teams who are apparently doing it right.

 

These threads are all the same. Somebody does the work to show something objectively, and there are a handful or so of people who just won't be convinced by any means, who then create the entire ensuing debate.

Just let those folks continue to believe what they will. It ain't gonna change.

Hell, if a guy in the Middle East can believe he's doing the right thing by strapping a bomb to his body and going into a building a blowing up hundreds of innocent people, well then I suppose people are capable of believing just about whatever they want. Bess and Hartline kinda pale in comparison.

 

To see the difference between QB's numbers with and without playmakers, take a look at Tom Brady's career statistics.

Without a combination of Moss, Welker, Gronk, or Hernandez, his stats are above average. Not elite. In fact, he's never thrown over 30 td's without them. His numbers are certainly very good. We haven't had a QB throw 20 TD's since Marino, so I'm not going to knock Brady's stats... But by no means are Tom Brady's numbers striking.

Look at his stats with a combination of Moss, Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez. Pretty ****ing unbelievable. Tops or close to in the league. As long as he's got those guys on the field with him, he's consistantly thrown for more TD's, yards, completion %, fewer INT's, etc...

Playmakers make plays because... Playmakers present mismatches. Playmakers open up options. Playmakers create unpredictability. This is even more true in the current NFL era where passing the football is at a premium.

There is no debate to be had. Guys like Hartline and Bess are very good role players. Even Fasano is pretty decent. I'm sure every team could find a home for them if they became available. But they're not playmakers. They're not even complete players. There are gaping holes in their games that limit their ability to uplift a team or a QB consistently. Our offense will not be dangerous without the addition of playmakers who can stay on the field consistently in all situations.

 

In all fairness, it's nice that we look ok on paper from a redzone efficiency standpoint (ranked 12th), but we both know that alone doesn't correlate to a successful offense, nor tell the whole story.

• Redzone scores per game (TDs): 25th
• Redzone scoring attempts per game: 31st
• Points per play: 24th

 

A whole lot of stats that simply show a team making due with what it has.
Really that's all the initial post is.

It really says nothing about the skill set of the group or how much of a threat to defenses this group actually is.

The starting WR's on this team are consistent and clutch in making catches.
We knew that without a bunch of regurgitated stats about their catches.
Point is that none of them are dangerous threats that will ever be able to be serious concerns for a defense, stretch the field consistently or demand rolling extra secondary help to them thereby loosening up a defensive secondary.

Its amazing to me that some really will try to argue were solid at all positions.
Don't at all get it. It's mind boggling quite frankly.
To each his own.

 

Some more stats to back you up:

Bess is 6th in win probability added. Hartline is 29th.

Hartline is 25th in expected points added. Bess is 38th.

Hartline is 22nd in yards per target. Bess is 44th.

They fair better in win probability. With Bess I think that's because he catches so many passes on 3rd down. Individually, I think expected points added and yards per target are better ways to judge their performance/value. While not elite, I think they hold up pretty well for playing with a rookie QB behind a inconsistent offensive line and ****ty running game.

I think they are both good players. Are they complete, elite players? Probably not. Should we look to upgrade the position, particularly with a player that has more straight line speed? Probably. Should we be happy with the value they bring to the team regardless of their issues? I think so. And I think they are fairly far down the list of problems with this team. Plus, I'd like to second Fineas' post. Well stated.

 

Brady and the pats keep on "rolling" because they have a combination of playmakers. When Moss hit the wall, that offense stagnated. They had to re-align the whole thing. Tom Brady was not nearly as effective in 2009. In 2010, NE drafted Gronk (greatest rookie TE season ever, then followed up with greatest TE season ever). Oh and that Hernandez kid, another top 5 TE in the NFL. When Welker gets hurt, it's not the end of the world because there are other playmakers on the team. Hernandez goes down, there are other playmakers. As I said, playmakers present options and create diversity. Thank you for agreeing?


And no, I never said talented QB's would "suck" without their star players. I said there is a difference in production. Take a look at Drew Brees's numbers when before and after Graham's injury... The offense opened up. Suddenly, teams had to play them differently to account for a massive threat. It was harder to contain that offense. Bree's numbers went up, their offensive production went up, and their wins went up.

Are we really going to pretend that playmakers don't alter the game? Even the opposite is true. Look at Larry Fitzgerald. With a talented QB, his production is all-world. With Skelton/Kolb/Leinart, he's not nearly that impressive. He's not nearly the same threat with those guys as he was with Kurt Warner. Great players make each other better and more productive.


Get real. You give Miami a top 5 WR in the NFL and Tannehill's production would improve in every measurable category.

And yes, your argument about Marino holds true, IMO. The guy did more with less talent than anyone in the history of the NFL. As said by a once by a former Miami offensive coordinator, you can't turn chicken **** into chicken salad. Without Danny, Miami has no offense. You're telling me Marino wouldn't of had more success (stats, wins and losses, playoffs) with guys like Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Moss, Megatron, Graham, Fitz, etc... than with his craptastic WR's/TE's? Guy finished the last decade of career surrounded by mediocrity.